The American Politics Thread!

[totes4totes]

And here's a second that focuses more on defunding the police as a better alternative to police reform in context of the #8CantWait

 

[totes4totes]

 

How many videos of police sanctioned violence do we need to see before the people accept that this is a systemic and institutional problem and not just a "few bad apples"

[ButterflyEffect]

I am not pro "defund the police", but there needs to be major police reform. Right now all it really takes to become a police officer is to graduate high school (not a big accomplishment), be physically fit, and pass an exam where they pretty much ask you questions that even a dumbass knows not to answer honestly if you disagree with what you know to be the true answer. Then you're patting these people on the back and call them heroes. You know there are people who enter the police force for the wrong reasons, and there's nothing really stopping them from becoming an officer. And then everyone feeds their egos by glorifying them for likely doing absolutely nothing heroic. The same goes with the army as well, but the problem there is honestly 100 times worse. There are good officers, I've known some of them personally. I've also known bad officers. 

This isn't an America-specific problem either. 

My issue right now, as if you can't tell by my post history in this thread over the past week or so, is that a number of police officers are clearly abusing their power and attacking anyone in their path. I think I'm even more bothered that there are people who don't seem to care. Burn down a building rioting? OUTRAGE. Police assaulting innocent individuals or media reporters? Who cares. If those people are fine living in a police state, by all means enjoy it, but America has criticized other nations countless times in history for much less.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, just from social media ...it’s become exhausting and folks are tossing around the r-word extremely liberally. You have white people that are supportive of the movement, have donated and try to do the right thing, only to be lectured. Before long, people are just going to turn off. 

[TeamAudra]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

Unfortunately, just from social media ...it’s become exhausting and folks are tossing around the r-word extremely liberally. You have white people that are supportive of the movement, have donated and try to do the right thing, only to be lectured. Before long, people are just going to turn off. 

I don’t know how it is in other cities, but most people in Minneapolis with BLM signs in their yard are white. It’s been like this for years. Of course, they support eliminating police misconduct against AAs, but I doubt they want to defund the cops. 

[*Chris]

3 hours ago, ButterflyEffect said:

I am not pro "defund the police", but there needs to be major police reform. Right now all it really takes to become a police officer is to graduate high school (not a big accomplishment), be physically fit, and pass an exam where they pretty much ask you questions that even a dumbass knows not to answer honestly if you disagree with what you know to be the true answer. Then you're patting these people on the back and call them heroes. You know there are people who enter the police force for the wrong reasons, and there's nothing really stopping them from becoming an officer. And then everyone feeds their egos by glorifying them for likely doing absolutely nothing heroic. The same goes with the army as well, but the problem there is honestly 100 times worse. There are good officers, I've known some of them personally. I've also known bad officers. 

This isn't an America-specific problem either. 

My issue right now, as if you can't tell by my post history in this thread over the past week or so, is that a number of police officers are clearly abusing their power and attacking anyone in their path. I think I'm even more bothered that there are people who don't seem to care. Burn down a building rioting? OUTRAGE. Police assaulting innocent individuals or media reporters? Who cares. If those people are fine living in a police state, by all means enjoy it, but America has criticized other nations countless times in history for much less.

Absolutely agree with everything. 

Especially considering the tragic incident that happened yesterday involving an Indigenous women in my province.  As well, considering the incident that happened in Buffalo with an elderly and the police forces as well - how can one person not want to see reform within the police forces, especially considering how the police forces in the USA is very militarize. 

[*Chris]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

Unfortunately, just from social media ...it’s become exhausting and folks are tossing around the r-word extremely liberally. You have white people that are supportive of the movement, have donated and try to do the right thing, only to be lectured. Before long, people are just going to turn off. 

Because as white ally, we need to continually keep educating ourselves on the issue - one have to show willingness to admit their privilege, their thoughts formed by systemic racism, and making sure to not fall down the "white savior" rabbit hole. 

[psterina]

Abusive behavior, needs to be held accountable. These officers, are just sticking up for one another. Good. Let them resign, and hire others, that have a sense of humanity & fairness. 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/57-buffalo-officers-resign-from-emergency-response-team-after-two-cops-suspended/ar-BB156hh9?ocid=spartanntp

[TeamAudra]

3 hours ago, *Chris said:

Because as white ally, we need to continually keep educating ourselves on the issue - one have to show willingness to admit their privilege, their thoughts formed by systemic racism, and making sure to not fall down the "white savior" rabbit hole. 

The left has no idea how polarizing the bolded is. Especially, “privilege,” or “white privilege.” It sounds elitist.  I understand the argument being made, but there has to be a better way to say it.   I’m not faulting you, because I know you didn’t come up with it. 
 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by TeamAudra

[RWG]

There is probably a small portion of protesters who actually want to live in an anarchist state. To most, defunding the police means examining the root causes of crime and incrementally reallocating parts of police budgets into addressing those issues. It doesn't mean no police tomorrow; it means there are ways of reducing crimes and the need to police them.

 

20 hours ago, ButterflyEffect said:

Looks like another case of attempted murder that won't be investigated. I love that in the report on the protests the police said one person tripped and injured themselves. "Tripped".

Makes you wonder how much the police have lied about before this past week that they've gotten away with because there was no video proof.

Lock these pigs up.

 

On a completely cynical level, it's amazing that there isn't even an M.O. to stop proving the protesters right for PR reasons. They know they are being filmed, and they don't care.

[mercfan3]

1 hour ago, TeamAudra said:

The left has no idea how polarizing the bolded is. Especially, “privilege,” or “white privilege.” It sounds elitist.  I understand the argument being made, but there has to be a better way to say it.   I’m not faulting you, because I know you didn’t come up with it. 
 

 

 

 

It's a word to say "you don't face systemic oppression because you are white." I have a feeling that whatever word people came up with - others would have a problem with it. 

 

I've said before, somehow..our society has transformed so that it is worse to call out racism than it is to do or participate in racist acts. Why is this?  White privilege is now a problem because people don't like to be told they have advantages in life. 

 

And the whole idea of elitism is odd. The same people crying elitism worship a "billionaire" New Yorker with golden toilets..

[mercfan3]

59 minutes ago, RWG said:

There is probably a small portion of protesters who actually want to live in an anarchist state. To most, defunding the police means examining the root causes of crime and incrementally reallocating parts of police budgets into addressing those issues. It doesn't mean no police tomorrow; it means there are ways of reducing crimes and the need to police them.

 

 

On a completely cynical level, it's amazing that there isn't even an M.O. to stop proving the protesters right for PR reasons. They know they are being filmed, and they don't care.

 

The video with the cop telling a bunch of white dudes to get in a building because he is going to tear gas the "other' protesters..like..the arrogance. The White dudes where there to protest..what did the cops think they were going to do? The kids probably posted it on twitter before the cop stopped giving them a warning..

[totes4totes]

7 hours ago, Drew said:

Unfortunately, just from social media ...it’s become exhausting and folks are tossing around the r-word extremely liberally. You have white people that are supportive of the movement, have donated and try to do the right thing, only to be lectured. Before long, people are just going to turn off. 

“The R Word”

 

Racist is not a slur.

[TeamAudra]

50 minutes ago, mercfan3 said:

 

It's a word to say "you don't face systemic oppression because you are white." I have a feeling that whatever word people came up with - others would have a problem with it. 

 

I've said before, somehow..our society has transformed so that it is worse to call out racism than it is to do or participate in racist acts. Why is this?  White privilege is now a problem because people don't like to be told they have advantages in life. 

 

And the whole idea of elitism is odd. The same people crying elitism worship a "billionaire" New Yorker with golden toilets..

It’s liberal speak. Something that sounds like it was drummed up by Liz Warren, but OK. It’s fine if you’re only interested in preaching to the choir. I’m only trying to help. 

[mercfan3]

Why is it liberal speak? It’s a socialogical term.

 

I think you are trying to deflect. Just like it was more important to care about property than human lives. 
 

it’s an uncomfortable topic. And yeah, some people highly resist it. But they would no matter what it was called.

 

And Liz Warren is the definition of white privilege.

 

 

[TeamAudra]

Just now, mercfan3 said:

Why is it liberal speak? It’s a socialogical term.

 

I think you are trying to deflect. Just like it was more important to care about property than human lives. 
 

it’s an uncomfortable topic. And yeah, some people highly resist it. But they would no matter what it was called.

 

And Liz Warren is the definition of white privilege.

 

 

Property vs human lives. Of course not, but many humans are going to be suffering in that part of town for a long time. It’s personal for me, because I’ve met so many of those people through my job. I think I explained that before. Yeah, they’re all liberals, and they’ll still vote for the idiot mayor, but I’m not all politics all the time. The people who were legitimately there to protest George Floyd’s death were not causing the problems, and we’re seeing the same thing all over the country. The destruction disproportionately affects minorities, the elderly who live in these areas, and poor people. Does anyone dispute that? 

[*Chris]

13 hours ago, TeamAudra said:

It’s liberal speak. Something that sounds like it was drummed up by Liz Warren, but OK. It’s fine if you’re only interested in preaching to the choir. I’m only trying to help. 

I am not necessarily a liberal by any means, and I believe that Black Lives Matter as well acknowledging that I have privileges - I've noticed my privilege while going to university, or while moving into my apartment, they did not do a credit check on me or my partner - I do know for a fact if we were not white, the landlord would not have made us sign the lease on the spot after visiting the unit (e.g.: this happened to me, twice, actually). 

[*Chris]

13 hours ago, TeamAudra said:

Property vs human lives. Of course not, but many humans are going to be suffering in that part of town for a long time. It’s personal for me, because I’ve met so many of those people through my job. I think I explained that before. Yeah, they’re all liberals, and they’ll still vote for the idiot mayor, but I’m not all politics all the time. The people who were legitimately there to protest George Floyd’s death were not causing the problems, and we’re seeing the same thing all over the country. The destruction disproportionately affects minorities, the elderly who live in these areas, and poor people. Does anyone dispute that? 

And who was causing the problems? 

[mercfan3]

White people co-opting the Black Lives Matter movement for their own agenda, for the most part. 
 

and of course, the police turned their aggression against the real protestors.

 

teamAudra, I wasn’t talking about  you specifically when I said property was being valued more than human lives. My point was, the same group (generally speaking) who would have a problem with the term “white privilege” are having a bigger problem with the rioting than the oppression black people face from the criminal justice system. 
 

and I get that a lot of that is because their news sources are framing things that way. And trust me, I have spent a lot of time explaining systemic oppression and privilege to a lot of white poor and working class people. (Again - I’m a high school teacher...). And I know you can’t explain it to someone like you are in a masters sociological class. But the resistance isn’t there because of the term. The resistance is there because many of those people have had their own trauma or hardships, and explaining to them that they have had advantages in life - when they pride themselves on being independent blue color workers - “pulling themselves up

by their bootstraps” ... and they have been taught their whole lives to respect and honor police and military..causes resistance. And I’m sympathetic to that. So, there are times where I make sure to frame it as “this is a different perspective..” 
 

But that also doesn’t erase that this same group has been raised their whole lives to uphold that same racist system - and they haven’t had the education or opportunity to counter these views. So I have to counter them. 
 

Again, I know it is not helpful to make them feel like bad people. But In truth, sometimes it’s hard not to feel that way. 
 

anyway, my whole point is that..O get what you are saying about the term “white privilege” but I think the resistance to the term goes way deeper - and there would be resistance to any term used.
 

[TeamAudra]

2 hours ago, mercfan3 said:

White people co-opting the Black Lives Matter movement for their own agenda, for the most part. 
 

and of course, the police turned their aggression against the real protestors.

 

teamAudra, I wasn’t talking about  you specifically when I said property was being valued more than human lives. My point was, the same group (generally speaking) who would have a problem with the term “white privilege” are having a bigger problem with the rioting than the oppression black people face from the criminal justice system. 
 

and I get that a lot of that is because their news sources are framing things that way. And trust me, I have spent a lot of time explaining systemic oppression and privilege to a lot of white poor and working class people. (Again - I’m a high school teacher...). And I know you can’t explain it to someone like you are in a masters sociological class. But the resistance isn’t there because of the term. The resistance is there because many of those people have had their own trauma or hardships, and explaining to them that they have had advantages in life - when they pride themselves on being independent blue color workers - “pulling themselves up

by their bootstraps” ... and they have been taught their whole lives to respect and honor police and military..causes resistance. And I’m sympathetic to that. So, there are times where I make sure to frame it as “this is a different perspective..” 
 

But that also doesn’t erase that this same group has been raised their whole lives to uphold that same racist system - and they haven’t had the education or opportunity to counter these views. So I have to counter them. 
 

Again, I know it is not helpful to make them feel like bad people. But In truth, sometimes it’s hard not to feel that way. 
 

anyway, my whole point is that..O get what you are saying about the term “white privilege” but I think the resistance to the term goes way deeper - and there would be resistance to any term used.
 

I would suggest what you just said in the post above is more likely what would be discussed in a masters level sociology class, than just throwing out the term, “white privilege.” Thought provoking arguments are always better, even if everyone participating in the discussion isn’t in agreement on everything. People on both sides of the aisle immediately shut down when they see certain words and phrases used frequently by their political adversaries. The objective should be to motivate people who might not otherwise give priority to an issue/problem to pay attention.  
 

None of us have a social media platform, so we don’t have to worry about it so much. Over the last week, we’ve seen varying tactics on social media, to draw attention to the cause. If you want to known whether they were effective at reaching their core audience, read the comments (minus the obvious trolls). 

Edited June 6, 2020 by TeamAudra

[sneaky]

But of course Chauvin is an illegal voter

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-candidate-alleges-voter-fraud-derek-chauvin-20200605-6hdffv6huvglrmgdpfc5krthym-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3WXOvDq6CwHC--noXCYqWFHx6AVSKLLaQO5Hpmy8Iivb-Wmdz2kXqw9dQ

Edited June 7, 2020 by sneaky

[Guest]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:10 PM, *Chris said:

Because as white ally, we need to continually keep educating ourselves on the issue - one have to show willingness to admit their privilege, their thoughts formed by systemic racism, and making sure to not fall down the "white savior" rabbit hole. 

I agree with this overall, of course. Though, I do understand what another poster said that others might object to this characterization. People in general, most of them work hard for what they get. So, I understand to some those might come across as fighting words. To me, I get that being male and white in America affords me the benefit of the doubt in a lot of situations and I think most simply want acknowledgment of that. 

 

What I was saying earlier is that some do-gooders on social media will police the way you express yourself. Even if you support the movement, but disagree with rioting, looting, etc and then you're verbally assaulted and told not to tell someone else the right way to grieve or protest, etc. Like, what? This was the boyfriend's experience on social media the last few days. 

 

 

 

On 6/5/2020 at 7:50 PM, totes4totes said:

“The R Word”

 

Racist is not a slur.

Right, but let's not argue over language. Holy moly. I'm merely saying hurling racist at another individual is a pretty serious charge, so if you're going to do it, you best be right. 

 

On 6/5/2020 at 8:50 PM, TeamAudra said:

Property vs human lives. Of course not, but many humans are going to be suffering in that part of town for a long time. It’s personal for me, because I’ve met so many of those people through my job. I think I explained that before. Yeah, they’re all liberals, and they’ll still vote for the idiot mayor, but I’m not all politics all the time. The people who were legitimately there to protest George Floyd’s death were not causing the problems, and we’re seeing the same thing all over the country. The destruction disproportionately affects minorities, the elderly who live in these areas, and poor people. Does anyone dispute that? 

I read a story at the beginning of all this about a black business owner that had his bar destroyed and it wasn't insured. How is THAT fair? Whenever I see anyone damaging property, looting and whatnot, it makes my blood boil. I'm not saying property and material things are more important than people, but you have to think there's a better way to get your point across. 

[Jonathan]

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jonathan said:

 

I have absolutely nothing negative to say in the least about President Bush, with respect to this decision. Each person has to decide for themselves what the best course of action is. 

[sneaky]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

I have absolutely nothing negative to say in the least about President Bush, with respect to this decision. Each person has to decide for themselves what the best course of action is. 

I'm obviously not a Trump fan but these oligarchs have the opposite affect than they think. Bush put this country in the crapper and people disliked him so much that they picked a little known Jr Senator rather than a candidate from another oligarch family. And then after Obama they picked an orange buffoon because they have so much distaste for politicians and the ruling class.