The American Politics Thread!

[psterina]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:13 PM, sneaky said:

I agree with this. Anyone differ?

 

 

 

 

Tell you what .... if you REALLY want to know how his supporters measure his success, there's plenty of comments (from his supporters) on this video,  from Sept. 13th, that will spell it out, for you.   That way .... you actually hear it from them, not someone who is putting his opinion forth, as to why.    So, scroll down, and find out, for yourself.

 

 

[Guest]

So I take that as a no, no one here saw the town hall on ABC?

[Smoochy]

13 minutes ago, Drew said:

So I take that as a no, no one here saw the town hall on ABC?

Gonna be honest, I've sort of become numb to politics as a whole and am starting to tune out.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Smoochy said:

Gonna be honest, I've sort of become numb to politics as a whole and am starting to tune out.

I get like that on occasion and have to take a hiatus for about a week and then get back into it. 

[ButterflyEffect]

I too ride a wave for US politics. 

I think it's going to be interesting come what happens the day after the election. Donald Trump has already planted the seeds for people to question the validity of the election. So no matter the outcome, people are going to be furious. There will be riots and protests. People will probably die.

[Guest]

I agree that regardless of the outcome, we'll remain polarized. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. 

[Jonathan]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

So I take that as a no, no one here saw the town hall on ABC?

 

I'd rather watch a cow take sh*t rather than watch another minute of Trump lying on TV cause at least cow manure is useful.

 

I do plan on watching Biden on CNN tonight though to actually set the record straight about Trump and tell us how he will get us out of Trump's mess. And he will actually respond to the audience questions, not interrupt them or talk over them. Imagine that.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jonathan

[psterina]

On 9/15/2020 at 5:41 PM, mercfan3 said:

 

psterina thinks that just because Tulsi and Trump have aligning political beliefs that Trump must be progressive. Lol. 

 

Trump will NEVER, be considered progressive, by me. HOWEVER ...  Trump & Tulsi, align on my major issues.  Namely, ending the endless wars, going after pharmaceutical companies, for over charging Americans, getting rid of NAFTA, and other issues.  But MOST OF ALL ...   https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-02-05/pdf/2020-02438.pdf  and 

This, has become my #1 issue, as it is so massive, and utterly horrible. People are so clueless, but .... heads are going to explode, regarding this. I mentioned how, there will be meltdowns, of epic proportions, in an earlier post.  The MSM & democrats in power, are in a panic. Why?  They KNOW, what is coming. You might want to ask yourselves, why certain voices, who are ALWAYS speaking out loudly, regarding politics, at this time .... aren't. I have spent hours upon hours, digging into this. And, let me say this ...While Biden, is looking for his marbles ... Trump has been playing 5D chess. 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by psterina

[Smoochy]

2 hours ago, psterina said:

 

Trump will NEVER, be considered progressive, by me. HOWEVER ...  Trump & Tulsi, align on my major issues.  Namely, ending the endless wars, going after pharmaceutical companies, for over charging Americans, getting rid of NAFTA, and other issues.  But MOST OF ALL ...   https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-02-05/pdf/2020-02438.pdf  and 

This, has become my #1 issue, as it is so massive, and utterly horrible. People are so clueless, but .... heads are going to explode, regarding this. I mentioned how, there will be meltdowns, of epic proportions, in an earlier post.  The MSM & democrats in power, are in a panic. Why?  They KNOW, what is coming. You might want to ask yourselves, why certain voices, who are ALWAYS speaking out loudly, regarding politics, at this time .... aren't. I have spent hours upon hours, digging into this. And, let me say this ...While Biden, is looking for his marbles ... Trump has been playing 5D chess. 

 

 

Trump has increased drone strikes and escalated tensions with Iran. Not exactly a peace candidate. Also, if he's wanting to end these wars, then why do we still have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Ridiculous that we're still wasting lives, money, and resources all these years later.

 

Drug prices is a thing that definitely needs to be addressed, but isn't it odd how Trump never even bothered to try and pass any legislation for it during his first 4 years in office and now, all of a sudden, he drops an executive order on it 50 days before an election that virtually every poll shows him down in nearly all key states? Drug prices have slowly went up under his presidency. I can't help you if you don't see this as strictly a political move that probably will get very little, if any, traction.

 

Yes, he replaced NAFTA....with another trade agreement that is basically the same exact thing with a different name. Was everything in that agreement bad? No, but lets not act like Trump is some crusader for the working class and manufacturing jobs. He's a billionaire (at the very least, multi-millionaire) who has a outsourced his own jobs and has a history of treating working people like garbage. I highly doubt that has changed since becoming President.

 

 

I agree, child and human trafficking is a huge issue that needs to be taken seriously, but I'm not feeding into the whole QANON shit where every major political figure and media person is some child molesting cannibal or whatever the hell they believe. That's not to say that there aren't some sick people who have held higher office, money, power, influence, and etc..., that's obviously true, but I'm also not going to pretend it's literally every rich person and every "establishment" politician who does this stuff. Trump is also the guy with over 20 sexual assault allegations against him. Obviously, they're just allegations and everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but that is not a good look for a President or anyone else (ask Bill Clinton). If even one of those allegations are true, the last guy I'd want to trust with stopping sex trafficking is a guy who has sexually assaulted someone (if not multiple people). 

 

 

Even with all the stuff above, you can make the argument that Biden really isn't any better in any of those areas and I would be hard pressed to argue that as you're not really wrong. The guy's record is not what I agree with. However, at least Biden acknowledges climate change and doesn't claim it to be a hoax. At least Biden doesn't try to paint the picture that half of the country are the enemy who are trying to crush your core values, beliefs, and won't stop until "your cities are burned down".

 

 

Unless you're a die hard Democrat, you're not going to be excited about Biden. I sure as hell am not, but I'll be damned if I try and pretend like Trump is anywhere close to my ideology. If anything, he's damaging it.

[Jonathan]

 

[RWG]

On 9/17/2020 at 3:45 PM, Smoochy said:

I agree, child and human trafficking is a huge issue that needs to be taken seriously, but I'm not feeding into the whole QANON shit where every major political figure and media person is some child molesting cannibal or whatever the hell they believe. That's not to say that there aren't some sick people who have held higher office, money, power, influence, and etc..., that's obviously true, but I'm also not going to pretend it's literally every rich person and every "establishment" politician who does this stuff. Trump is also the guy with over 20 sexual assault allegations against him. Obviously, they're just allegations and everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but that is not a good look for a President or anyone else (ask Bill Clinton). If even one of those allegations are true, the last guy I'd want to trust with stopping sex trafficking is a guy who has sexually assaulted someone (if not multiple people). 

 

When people are led to believe children are in danger, they'll feel morally justified in anything they do, and any amount of violence is acceptable collateral. As a political tool to energize your base, this in itself is a pretty gross exploitation of an extremely serious issue.

Edited September 18, 2020 by RWG

[Guest]

RBG has passed away at the age of 87. 

[RWG]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

RBG has passed away at the age of 87. 

 

A towering legal figure, regardless of what kind of rulings you like. RIP.

[bswanson]

^ yes, but now we see if mcconnell is a hypocrite if he fast tracks a nomination. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by bswanson

[sneaky]

17 minutes ago, bswanson said:

^ yes, but now we see if mcconnell is a hypocrite if he fast tracks a nomination. 

That turkey necked bastard is nothing if not a hypocrite.

[sneaky]

America is going to become like 20th century Ireland. And that may be a best case scenario

[RWG]

2 hours ago, bswanson said:

^ yes, but now we see if mcconnell is a hypocrite if he fast tracks a nomination. 

 

Of course he will do that lol. McConnell, the person who actually runs the U.S., does not care an iota whether he is perceived as a hypocrite.

[psterina]

Another progressive, weighing in

 

 

[psterina]

3 hours ago, RWG said:

 

When people are led to believe children are in danger, they'll feel morally justified in anything they do, and any amount of violence is acceptable collateral. As a political tool to energize your base, this in itself is a pretty gross exploitation of an extremely serious issue.

 

It's a heck of a lot more than "when people are led to believe children are in danger"   . And ... this isn't just about children. It's about ALL human trafficking, which is shockingly, a HUGE, SICKENING problem. Apparently, much more, than you are aware of. 

 

https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-trafficking-in-persons-report/

[bswanson]

the press should ask him the last time this happened didnt you say let the voters decide. also people should protest with signs that say let the voters decide, then maybe he wont get the votes 

[Guest]

I made a few important points to a good friend of mine for a number of years. He kind of gave me side-eye and disagreed, but it is what it is. Boring world if we all agreed. 

 

He starts our discussion with "How in the world can you defend this man?" 

 

Long sigh. In the beginning, I did defend him at every turn. If you recall, there was a massive throng of people that refused to give him a chance from the very beginning. That said, did he regularly say things that undermined his own message and policies? Yes! After a while, I started to call those out in the hopes that perhaps he might pivot and emulate some of the qualities I've admired about a great many leaders in the past. Somewhere along the way though, I made peace with the fact that he's just a different kind of person. He pretty much says what he's thinking, not a lot of guesswork to be done there. My friend wanted of course to fixate on the lying. He just lies so much!! ...So, okay. I'll go in on that. But all lies are not created equal, it's a matter of degree and always has been. Is the fact that less people showed up to his inaugural than President Obama's an example of a lie? ....If we take everything literal and must spell out everything, then yes. That said, is it as problematic as say, the call with the Ukrainian president? UH, NO?! The problem is, when you normalize calling everything out that's the slightest bit of an exaggeration, it's a lot like crying wolf. Then when something that's actually worth spending airtime on occurs, a huge segment of the public will lambast you as fake news and then media types are mystified. It's not that difficult of a concept, guys! Somewhere along the way, some of these folks became the thing they were accused of being in the first place. 

 

Now, the other point. I watch all cable news networks pretty much, including CNN. That said, they've become very sensationalist in the Trump era. I get that it's a symbiotic type of deal, they need him to make news and to a lesser degree, Trump (kind of) needs him to get his message out. At least, that was the case in the early days of the 2016 campaign. When some of these folks are and have been out to nail this guy since he was sworn in (some, not all - a strong press is important, holding the powerful to account is important), I originally enjoyed when he would berate them. Many of them have led lives of privilege and I'm not simply jealous, good for them. The majority went to grad school in the D.C. corridor and made it to one of the premier cable news networks in the world, all good stuff and I'm sure many of them worked very hard to get there. That said, they're not folks I identify with, but ones that are trying to stay relevant and drum up ratings. It's not about reporting the news and getting to the facts. It hasn't been that way for quite a long time. The folks that attend rallies, Trump and Biden are my kind of people. I came from a solidly middle class existence and my parents both worked very hard for everything they have and to live in a safe, quiet community. Yes, President Trump has money and came from money, was essentially supported at the outset by an investment from his Dad, so yes, he lives a life of privilege too but as the PBS doc revealed to some for the first time, those that were well off in New York City largely didn't care Trump. All the money in the world didn't necessarily make him solidly one of the beautiful people and I think there's linkage and identification between for example, your run of the mill factory worker in one of the rust belt states and Trump for that reason. There's been this tinge of elitism and looking down on folks that supported Trump and assuming they aren't educated and the working class see them in him. It's very powerful and definitely something I've taken notice of. 

 

Some of them have to be willing to engage those with whom they disagree. Don't be afraid to have difficult, but respectful conversations. Some partisans on both sides you won't be able to convince to even have those conversations, but it's vital for us to move forward as a society. We are in it together to an extent. When you dismiss someone because they have a different belief from you, or supported a different candidate, you don't have to be nasty or berate them, attempt to "educate" them because you just come across as a self-righteous, you-know-what. It happens on the right too, but geez have I seen it big time on social media from folks on the left side of the aisle. 

 

 

[sneaky]

4 hours ago, Drew said:

I made a few important points to a good friend of mine for a number of years. He kind of gave me side-eye and disagreed, but it is what it is. Boring world if we all agreed. 

 

He starts our discussion with "How in the world can you defend this man?" 

 

Long sigh. In the beginning, I did defend him at every turn. If you recall, there was a massive throng of people that refused to give him a chance from the very beginning. That said, did he regularly say things that undermined his own message and policies? Yes! After a while, I started to call those out in the hopes that perhaps he might pivot and emulate some of the qualities I've admired about a great many leaders in the past. Somewhere along the way though, I made peace with the fact that he's just a different kind of person. He pretty much says what he's thinking, not a lot of guesswork to be done there. My friend wanted of course to fixate on the lying. He just lies so much!! ...So, okay. I'll go in on that. But all lies are not created equal, it's a matter of degree and always has been. Is the fact that less people showed up to his inaugural than President Obama's an example of a lie? ....If we take everything literal and must spell out everything, then yes. That said, is it as problematic as say, the call with the Ukrainian president? UH, NO?! The problem is, when you normalize calling everything out that's the slightest bit of an exaggeration, it's a lot like crying wolf. Then when something that's actually worth spending airtime on occurs, a huge segment of the public will lambast you as fake news and then media types are mystified. It's not that difficult of a concept, guys! Somewhere along the way, some of these folks became the thing they were accused of being in the first place. 

 

Now, the other point. I watch all cable news networks pretty much, including CNN. That said, they've become very sensationalist in the Trump era. I get that it's a symbiotic type of deal, they need him to make news and to a lesser degree, Trump (kind of) needs him to get his message out. At least, that was the case in the early days of the 2016 campaign. When some of these folks are and have been out to nail this guy since he was sworn in (some, not all - a strong press is important, holding the powerful to account is important), I originally enjoyed when he would berate them. Many of them have led lives of privilege and I'm not simply jealous, good for them. The majority went to grad school in the D.C. corridor and made it to one of the premier cable news networks in the world, all good stuff and I'm sure many of them worked very hard to get there. That said, they're not folks I identify with, but ones that are trying to stay relevant and drum up ratings. It's not about reporting the news and getting to the facts. It hasn't been that way for quite a long time. The folks that attend rallies, Trump and Biden are my kind of people. I came from a solidly middle class existence and my parents both worked very hard for everything they have and to live in a safe, quiet community. Yes, President Trump has money and came from money, was essentially supported at the outset by an investment from his Dad, so yes, he lives a life of privilege too but as the PBS doc revealed to some for the first time, those that were well off in New York City largely didn't care Trump. All the money in the world didn't necessarily make him solidly one of the beautiful people and I think there's linkage and identification between for example, your run of the mill factory worker in one of the rust belt states and Trump for that reason. There's been this tinge of elitism and looking down on folks that supported Trump and assuming they aren't educated and the working class see them in him. It's very powerful and definitely something I've taken notice of. 

 

Some of them have to be willing to engage those with whom they disagree. Don't be afraid to have difficult, but respectful conversations. Some partisans on both sides you won't be able to convince to even have those conversations, but it's vital for us to move forward as a society. We are in it together to an extent. When you dismiss someone because they have a different belief from you, or supported a different candidate, you don't have to be nasty or berate them, attempt to "educate" them because you just come across as a self-righteous, you-know-what. It happens on the right too, but geez have I seen it big time on social media from folks on the left side of the aisle. 

 

 

I may be a little biased but I think Republicans have been the agressor in this. Republicans and their voters were outright nasty to Obama pledging to block anything he did. Then, during the 2016 election the Republicans were more aggressive towards liberals calling them snowflakes and libtards. I think liberals finally got fed up and now are nasty as hell to conservatives. And now a lot of Dems have developed strong TDS.

 

I will also say though, I am starting to see both parties tend to work for the same people. A lot of what is done is just political theatre. That is why Democrats voted to increase Trump's military budget even though he is "so dangerous and a facist",That is why most of them vote to approve his federal judge appointees, etc

 

The McConnell's, Schumer's , Pelosi's, Murkowski's have been in so long all they care about is keeping the throne.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, sneaky said:

I may be a little biased but I think Republicans have been the agressor in this. Republicans and their voters were outright nasty to Obama pledging to block anything he did. Then, during the 2016 election the Republicans were more aggressive towards liberals calling them snowflakes and libtards. I think liberals finally got fed up and now are nasty as hell to conservatives. And now a lot of Dems have developed strong TDS.

 

I will also say though, I am starting to see both parties tend to work for the same people. A lot of what is done is just political theatre. That is why Democrats voted to increase Trump's military budget even though he is "so dangerous and a facist",That is why most of them vote to approve his federal judge appointees, etc

 

The McConnell's, Schumer's , Pelosi's, Murkowski's have been in so long all they care about is keeping the throne.

Yeah, I understand the logic McConnell is trying to use. The Senate and the presidency are held by the same party and they more than likely have the votes. That said, it does come across as hypocritical. That said, it's politics. He has a chance to build on his legacy and help put conservative judges on the court. I do agree that the discourse has gone way down and yes, both sides have contributed to it for sure. 

 

Yes at your final statement. 

[RWG]

On 9/18/2020 at 11:11 PM, psterina said:

 

It's a heck of a lot more than "when people are led to believe children are in danger"   . And ... this isn't just about children. It's about ALL human trafficking, which is shockingly, a HUGE, SICKENING problem. Apparently, much more, than you are aware of. 

 

https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-trafficking-in-persons-report/

 

Yeah yeah. No one is as well informed as you, psterina.

 

I'm sure your raising this issue for the first time six weeks before an election in the American Politics Thread, in relation to Donald Trump and how the Democrats and elites are getting locked up for trafficking, is rooted in sincere concern for the victims.

[Smoochy]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:55 PM, psterina said:

Another progressive, weighing in

 

 

Lol A guy supported by White Supremacists (No, not all of his supporters are white supremacists, just saying that white supremacists do support the guy overwhelmingly), a guy who is actively trying to input Supreme Court Justices who want to overturn Roe vs Wade, a guy who doesn't believe in climate science, and a guy who actively downplayed Covid to "avoid panic" is not "left". The fact that there are people even out there with this thought is insanity.

 

Who cares if he calls out the "military industrial complex"? He increased military spending and has continued (and increased) drone strikes. I can go around and tell everyone that eating meat is wrong, but then I go to a restaurant and eat a hamburger. Talk is cheap. Saying something doesn't mean anything unless you actually do something about it.

 

 

I will not argue against lowering drug cost as I'm a staunch believer in medicare for all (something that Trump doesn't believe in and would condemn as "radical socialism") and making drugs affordable to everyone, but this was strictly a political move by Trump to try and win back lost support, nothing else. If he really gave a shit, he would've done this much sooner than a month and a half before election day. This probably won't even get off the ground, but if it does, I will give him credit.

 

Not to mention that Trump has been saying he's ready to roll out a new healthcare plan, but we have yet to see anything from him in 4 years. The guy blows smoke and hopes people just believe him.

 

Pardoning Edward Snowden is 100% the right thing to do, but again, why hasn't he done it yet? Another strictly political move that he probably really doesn't believe in, but he thinks it will make him popular among those who do believe a whistle-blower like Snowden shouldn't be punished for speaking out against crimes his country has committed. This is also the same Trump who called Chelsea Manning a "traitor".

 

 

Just because Biden sucks doesn't mean I have to convince myself that Trump is "to the left" of Biden. That is ridiculous. Trump can talk all the anti-establishment rhetoric he wants, but he's a phony. You don't pack your cabinet with billionaires and bankers if you're "anti-establishment". I'd much rather have the non-climate denying, pro-choice establishment guy than the lunatic we currently have.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Smoochy