The American Politics Thread!

[Nutterbutter]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

^ I remember thinking, the next 2-4 years with particular focus on the first two is going to an epic battle to see who's actually more radical. Still an open question. 

Either way, we're screwed. In the old days on television westerns the bandits would wear masks to rob the people. Today they make the people wear the masks.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Nutterbutter said:

Either way, we're screwed. In the old days on television westerns the bandits would wear masks to rob the people. Today they make the people wear the masks.

How have people not been out robbing banks? I don't even understand how there hasn't been a huge issue there. 

[Nutterbutter]

53 minutes ago, Drew said:

How have people not been out robbing banks? I don't even understand how there hasn't been a huge issue there. 

If I were a devious person, I'd wear a MAGA hat and MAGA mask to rob a bank. Once the story broke they'd be failing all over themselves to blame Trump and forget about me the Democrats would make me a hero and give me a gofundme account

[Guest]

Anyone have any thoughts on the final day of the Trump presidency? ...I understand what I'm asking for.  Just want to hear I guess the final statement as of now on him according to some of you. Then I'll give my own take. 

[ButterflyEffect]

Final thoughts? I have many, but most of them can be summarized by "predictable chaos".

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, ButterflyEffect said:

Final thoughts? I have many, but most of them can be summarized by "predictable chaos".

If you were speaking to someone that didn't understand your perspective on the guy, what would you say? 

[sneaky]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

Anyone have any thoughts on the final day of the Trump presidency? ...I understand what I'm asking for.  Just want to hear I guess the final statement as of now on him according to some of you. Then I'll give my own take. 

I appreciate him not escalating war as much as Obama in the middle east. That said all his lies, his lack of care with the pandemic and lack of him addressing structural issues in our country make him not worth it as president and possibly the worst president in my lifetime

 

I do not give him credit for what conservatives tend to credit him with. For instance, conservatives credit him with keeping unemployment low pre covid and lowering minority un employment but that was already going down before Obama left he just had to not screw it up

[Guest]

Watching his farewell address right now. 

[ButterflyEffect]

13 minutes ago, Drew said:

If you were speaking to someone that didn't understand your perspective on the guy, what would you say? 

Call it like it is. The man unfortunately had a tendency to put his own ego ahead of the country he was elected to run. He surrounded himself with "yes men" who's sole purpose was to blow smoke up his ass, which only made matters worse. When he was elected, many expressed concerns that an individual who had never held any form of office was being given the most important job in the country, and his inexperience and inability to understand those nuances of being a government official was blatantly obvious from day one. And yet, it's almost all forgivable if he had the self-awareness to acknowledge that he was learning on the job. Instead he bit back with scathing and personal attacks, and doubled down on his mistakes and rhetoric. Ultimately his biggest downfall was the blatant mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. That is a scenario where you must defer to those who know more than you. Instead he made false, baseless claims about the virus, and argued with experts much smarter than him. Never forget this quote...."You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero." Now you have close to 25 million cases, and over 400,000 deaths. In fact, a lot of Trumps problems in the White House could have been avoided if he had surrounded himself with people who would tell him how things were, and not the "yes men" who were there to pat him on the back. We also know how his Presidency ended, and how it will be remembered....a man who's ego was so large that he couldn't admit failure in the face of defeat, perpetuated multiple lies about electoral fraud in attempt to save face. A lie which unfortunately lead to domestic terrorists storming the Capitol in his name, resulting in five deaths.

 Chaos.

But it was predictable, since we all seen this coming well before he took office.

[ButterflyEffect]

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, ButterflyEffect said:

Call it like it is. The man unfortunately had a tendency to put his own ego ahead of the country he was elected to run. He surrounded himself with "yes men" who's sole purpose was to blow smoke up his ass, which only made matters worse. When he was elected, many expressed concerns that an individual who had never held any form of office was being given the most important job in the country, and his inexperience and inability to understand those nuances of being a government official was blatantly obvious from day one. And yet, it's almost all forgivable if he had the self-awareness to acknowledge that he was learning on the job. Instead he bit back with scathing and personal attacks, and doubled down on his mistakes and rhetoric. Ultimately his biggest downfall was the blatant mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. That is a scenario where you must defer to those who know more than you. Instead he made false, baseless claims about the virus, and argued with experts much smarter than him. Never forget this quote...."You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero." Now you have close to 25 million cases, and over 400,000 deaths. In fact, a lot of Trumps problems in the White House could have been avoided if he had surrounded himself with people who would tell him how things were, and not the "yes men" who were there to pat him on the back. We also know how his Presidency ended, and how it will be remembered....a man who's ego was so large that he couldn't admit failure in the face of defeat, perpetuated multiple lies about electoral fraud in attempt to save face. A lie which unfortunately lead to domestic terrorists storming the Capitol in his name, resulting in five deaths.

 Chaos.

But it was predictable, since we all seen this coming well before he took office.

But you understand, and I'm someone that fundamentally believe most of us aren't THAT far apart in terms of policy...with the exception of public perception on COVID, it's difficult to get a straight answer out of the vehemently anti-Trump folks as to what he did to really impact them in a negative way. I don't think it's completely ~fair to put all those deaths on him, but the messaging publicly was all over the place and downplaying clearly occurred. But I get that for better or worse, the incumbent gets credit things that go well when they're physically there and blamed for the bad. 

[TeamAudra]

First of all, I did not favor his nomination, and voted 3rd party in 2016. He’s an a**hole and a loose cannon, but I like lower taxes, decreased regulation and conservative judges. I live in a state that ejected Jesse Ventura Governor. Both he and Trump share many of the same character traits, and both of their terms in office ended in about the same manner, except Jesse did not seek a 2nd term (he would have lost). 
 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by TeamAudra

[ButterflyEffect]

47 minutes ago, Drew said:

But you understand, and I'm someone that fundamentally believe most of us aren't THAT far apart in terms of policy...with the exception of public perception on COVID, it's difficult to get a straight answer out of the vehemently anti-Trump folks as to what he did to really impact them in a negative way. I don't think it's completely ~fair to put all those deaths on him, but the messaging publicly was all over the place and downplaying clearly occurred. But I get that for better or worse, the incumbent gets credit things that go well when they're physically there and blamed for the bad. 

Personal impact is a tough metric to ask about because no matter what the government does, there are very few things that can personally impact an individual, for better or worse. Taxes being the one most people will relate to, others being rights and civil liberties. Job creation can be cited as one as well, though that aspect of the economy is usually a more complex beast than just "I convinced X to keep their factory here".

I haven't been impacted, I'm a white Canadian. If you want to see someone who has been negatively impacted by Trump's four years in office, look to racial minorities and immigrants. I'm sure they feel the brunt of it when a jackass tells them to go back where they came from, which has somehow become less of a faux-pas thing to say the past 5 years.

I could also go into how he has fractured many of the USA's diplomatic relations with longtime allies, how he almost started an unnecessary war with Iran, or how his silly tariffs against ally nations could have been real bad for the USA had many of them not been repealed. With regards to diplomatic relations, that's not something that immediately changes once Biden is in office.

[TeamAudra]

I’m sure liberals on IDF love this sh*t, but this is something that will certainly negatively impact individuals, both in the US and in Canada 
 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by TeamAudra

[RWG]

1 hour ago, ButterflyEffect said:

Call it like it is. The man unfortunately had a tendency to put his own ego ahead of the country he was elected to run. He surrounded himself with "yes men" who's sole purpose was to blow smoke up his ass, which only made matters worse. When he was elected, many expressed concerns that an individual who had never held any form of office was being given the most important job in the country, and his inexperience and inability to understand those nuances of being a government official was blatantly obvious from day one. And yet, it's almost all forgivable if he had the self-awareness to acknowledge that he was learning on the job. Instead he bit back with scathing and personal attacks, and doubled down on his mistakes and rhetoric. Ultimately his biggest downfall was the blatant mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. That is a scenario where you must defer to those who know more than you. Instead he made false, baseless claims about the virus, and argued with experts much smarter than him. Never forget this quote...."You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero." Now you have close to 25 million cases, and over 400,000 deaths. In fact, a lot of Trumps problems in the White House could have been avoided if he had surrounded himself with people who would tell him how things were, and not the "yes men" who were there to pat him on the back. We also know how his Presidency ended, and how it will be remembered....a man who's ego was so large that he couldn't admit failure in the face of defeat, perpetuated multiple lies about electoral fraud in attempt to save face. A lie which unfortunately lead to domestic terrorists storming the Capitol in his name, resulting in five deaths.

 Chaos.

But it was predictable, since we all seen this coming well before he took office.

 

Trump could have wiped out everything else about his term and waltzed to re-election if only he'd handled, or rather, used the pandemic differently. He didn't need to manage it well to capitalize. He didn't even need to care. All he had to do was pretend to care, and to create the simple equations of Trump = good, Covid = bad in people's minds. Look at what has happened to most the approval ratings of most governors and world leaders. Everyone went up because it's not that hard to portray yourself as in the weeds with this issue. For example, Andrew Cuomo has done an objectively horrible job managing managing New York's epidemic, yet his approval skyrocketed because people trusted he was at least on it, and the idea of someone else taking over seemed too disruptive.

 

Disasters are great for incumbents and a huge advantage in an election year. It was served up for Trump. Instead of capitalizing on people's uncertainties, he denied basically everything about the pandemic and how bad it could get. So he looked liable when it did get that bad, and made people feel like he was working against any progress that could be made on the issue. If people were satisfied with his handling of Covid, that and what they perceive to be a strong economy would have carried him to a second term.

 

tbc, I thought the United States was going to have a rough go of Covid because of reasons that are kind of baked into the equation (mostly cultural, healthcare system, etc.). Another president may not have fared much better in terms of cases and deaths, but they would have used it to present themselves as competent. As it nears a half-million deaths, Trump's handling certainly didn't help, but imo it's that he didn't know how to manage it politically that has cost him his second term. It's also what gives me pause when people call him a master-level communicator or a figure with brilliant political instincts. He just came around at the right time for him, imo.

 

More generally, good riddance to the Trump years. I don't even mean that as a sentiment about him politically. I'm just tired of this environment of everyone being all politics all the time and constantly on a hair trigger to be mad. Maybe that's not a symptom of Trump and rather something we're stuck with, but I would frankly prefer it if people went back to finding politics uninteresting.

Edited January 20, 2021 by RWG

[ButterflyEffect]

31 minutes ago, RWG said:

tbc, I thought the United States was going to have a rough go of Covid because of reasons that are kind of baked into the equation (mostly cultural, healthcare system, etc.). Another president may not have fared much better in terms of cases and deaths, but they would have used it to present themselves as competent. As it nears a half-million deaths, Trump's handling certainly didn't help, but imo it's that he didn't know how to manage it politically that has cost him his second term. It's also what gives me pause when people call him a master-level communicator or a figure with brilliant political instincts. He just came around at the right time for him, imo.

Provincial Premier approval versus how their province is doing with COVID versus the public perception of the Premiers is really interesting. You can sort of break it down into four groups:

- Provinces which have handled the pandemic well and governments with high approval ratings: Atlantic Canada
- Provinces which have handled the pandemic well and governments with low approval ratings: None

- Provinces which have handled the pandemic poorly and governments with low approval ratings: Alberta, Manitoba to an extent
- Provinces which have handled the pandemic poorly and governments with high approval ratings: Ontario, Quebec.

That last group is the most interesting. Things aren't doing so hot in Ontario and Quebec, but the perception is that the government is doing its best is helping keep their approval ratings high. Heck, Doug Ford saved his political future during the pandemic. With how disliked he was pre-pandemic, it's really easy to see how Donald Trump could have done the same to completely change public perception around him.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, RWG said:

 

Trump could have wiped out everything else about his term and waltzed to re-election if only he'd handled, or rather, used the pandemic differently. He didn't need to manage it well to capitalize. He didn't even need to care. All he had to do was pretend to care, and to create the simple equations of Trump = good, Covid = bad in people's minds. Look at what has happened to most the approval ratings of most governors and world leaders. Everyone went up because it's not that hard to portray yourself as in the weeds with this issue. For example, Andrew Cuomo has done an objectively horrible job managing managing New York's epidemic, yet his approval skyrocketed because people trusted he was at least on it, and the idea of someone else taking over seemed too disruptive.

 

Disasters are great for incumbents and a huge advantage in an election year. It was served up for Trump. Instead of capitalizing on people's uncertainties, he denied basically everything about the pandemic and how bad it could get. So he looked liable when it did get that bad, and made people feel like he was working against any progress that could be made on the issue. If people were satisfied with his handling of Covid, that and what they perceive to be a strong economy would have carried him to a second term.

 

tbc, I thought the United States was going to have a rough go of Covid because of reasons that are kind of baked into the equation (mostly cultural, healthcare system, etc.). Another president may not have fared much better in terms of cases and deaths, but they would have used it to present themselves as competent. As it nears a half-million deaths, Trump's handling certainly didn't help, but imo it's that he didn't know how to manage it politically that has cost him his second term. It's also what gives me pause when people call him a master-level communicator or a figure with brilliant political instincts. He just came around at the right time for him, imo.

 

More generally, good riddance to the Trump years. I don't even mean that as a sentiment about him politically. I'm just tired of this environment of everyone being all politics all the time and constantly on a hair trigger to be mad. Maybe that's not a symptom of Trump and rather something we're stuck with, but I would frankly prefer it if people went back to finding politics uninteresting.

Hey, your avatar! One of, if not the greatest television series of all time. I'm rewatching it with the boyfriend as we speak and he keeps trying to play Solitare during it. Ugh. Some people just don't know greatness. 

 

Anyway, I actually agree that if he had just handled the pandemic differently, he would have won comfortably. I've said from the beginning that the public likes to feel cared for. Do we think Bill Clinton genuinely "felt" anyone's pain? Probably not, though I don't know. When you're leader of the free world, you have to play the game. President Trump isn't wired that way. Governor Cuomo's handling has been nothing short of horrible and he wrote a book about leadership during the COVID crisis. You can't make that up! 

 

I'm glad you basically acknowledge the unfairness of tying all the deaths to Trump. But incumbents tend to reap the rewards for good news and get blamed for the bad stuff. 

 

Honestly, I think history will regard some of what he tried to do better than some do now, especially the media. Yes, the media treated him horribly and took him out of context consistently, things most expected them to do. But he gave them ammunition as well on occasion and would step on his own message. Those that are center right to conservative would probably tell you he was a good president with respect to policy, but his political instincts and ego worked for the country sometimes and other times, did not. 

 

I do wish President Trump was attending the inauguration though. I think it's an important tradition. I understand why he doesn't want to. I would feel the same way about many of those people. But it's really just a small gesture to show the country that everything is and will be okay, peaceful transfer of power, etc. 

[Jonathan]

 

[*Chris]

4 hours ago, Drew said:

Anyone have any thoughts on the final day of the Trump presidency? ...I understand what I'm asking for.  Just want to hear I guess the final statement as of now on him according to some of you. Then I'll give my own take. 

As you know, I live and breathe politic so I will try to keep this brief & hope I can get everything across. 

Trump may have done some positive things but those things will not be his legacy. His legacy will be known as president and man who did not have the temperament to be the most powerful man in the world, as one would say considering the US status on the World scene; he will not be known as the best president in the US per foreign leaders. In fact, I think he tried to ruin some relationship he had with other countries for his own good - I am pro-trade and his views on NAFTA was not an easy sell in Canada, Americans may have loved it but he certainly had an impact on states that have a close relationship with Canada such as Maine.   On top of this, I think everyone else hit the nail on the head - the mismanagement of the pandemic will be huge; As butterflyeffect said and as I said before, leaders who handled the pandemic well are incredibly popular in the polls and easily win their election (e.g.: NZ election where PM Ardern easily won her election, different provincial leader in Canada with their election campaign)... 

For better or worst, Trump also showed that we cannot turn a blind eye on social issues - many people thought racism was gone due to Obama being in power, but Trump being in power showcased that systemic racism is well & alive in the US & at times, it was shown through his xenophobic policies.  For worst, he gave fringe voters a platform - fringe voters that should have stayed quiet and never vote, because it was not a cute look for the rest of your country on the world scene.  And his status made fringe group like QAnon attached themselves to have a voice and now they have a voice in congress & the republican party which is dangerous.  In other words, he changed the game for better or worst. 

 

And for me personally, as a politico and someone who work in the field, I did not enjoy that he was an unlikely politician - I truly believe that it is important to have someone with a certain level in the legislative, judiciary or executive branch of the government if they want to being at the top of the office. Being a "typical" politician may be bad but it is necessarily at time because you understand the political game and the risk for your decisions - this is also a problem with who he surrounded himself with, as most of them were "unusual" political staffer', and role number one is to never have your family involved or employed by you while in governement (e.g.: there's actually rules and law that prohibit that in Canada).  As always, in my opinion, he did not show respect for the conventional approach in politics which is important imo or the will of the people after the past election - he will also be remembered for that; you see it in countries like Venezuela where the president does not want to concede the election but not in a country that call themselves the biggest democracy in the world - I could go on and on about this & why his false claims are incredible dangerous as we noticed. 

And now as a Canadian Progressive Conservative, Trump does not fit my idea of conservatism or republicanism - I truly feel that he only went with this party cause he knew he could win with them. In fact, I do not think Trump is a conservative or republican even after 4 years - he wanted to create his own movement because of his ego & he managed to do so. And unfortunately now, there's a huge fracture in the conservative circle & republican party in the US because of Trump and Trumpism - Trumpism is way more powerful than the Republican party; I sure hope for their sake that they can get rid of Trumpism especially when there are good individual in that party that do not deserve to be associated with Trump / Trumpism for the rest of their career.  

In other words, Trump will be known for his over the top personality who was never afraid to do what he deemed best for himself and his followers, and did not care for the results of his actions. He showed the world that anyone can become President, but also taught a lesson to other country to never elect a trump-like politician (e.g.: In Canada, Maxime Bernier founded his own party and barely got 2% of the vote, France handily rejected Le Pen who was seen as a favourite to win in the last presidential election)... 

 

[bswanson]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

But you understand, and I'm someone that fundamentally believe most of us aren't THAT far apart in terms of policy...with the exception of public perception on COVID, it's difficult to get a straight answer out of the vehemently anti-Trump folks as to what he did to really impact them in a negative way. I don't think it's completely ~fair to put all those deaths on him, but the messaging publicly was all over the place and downplaying clearly occurred. But I get that for better or worse, the incumbent gets credit things that go well when they're physically there and blamed for the bad. 

well yeah I mean when Covid was at its worst in apeil he kept saying its going away. it will be gone by Easter it was only getting worse. also another thing that really hurt hiim was the whole photo op at the chuch with the bible  if he handled it better he would have prob won .

Edited January 20, 2021 by bswanson

[ButterflyEffect]

Only a few hours left for those court challenges with all that overwhelming evidence about voter fraud to happen. You'd have to think once Biden is inaugurated that reversing the election results becomes pretty much impossible. 

[FunkyFrankie]

Happy trump free day!

[Guest]

I'm watching live, while working. I hope we can come together on those things we agree on and have spirited, policy-based debates on things that we differ on. I hope he's what he promised to be.

[TeamAudra]

9 minutes ago, Drew said:

I'm watching live, while working. I hope we can come together on those things we agree on and have spirited, policy-based debates on things that we differ on. I hope he's what he promised to be.

Aside for some social issues, on what do you agree with Biden/Harris?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, TeamAudra said:

Aside for some social issues, on what do you agree with Biden/Harris?

This is a difficult one because things that Biden has spoken about and paid some level of lip service to critical race theory and to a lesser extent, the green new deal are two things I'm NOT on board with at all. That said, he's only said he'd reinstate the former, which is an awful idea but not a deal breaker for me. 

 

Areas of agreement would probably include at first glance: paid leave, his view on campaign finance reform, expanding background checks on guns is fine, but too many restrictions makes me uncomfortable and would be a slippery slope, though I'm personally not a gun owner. I agree with him on his opposition to Medicare-For-All, letting states determine whether pot is legal, and obviously his abortion stance and defense of strengthening workplace discrimination against LGBT people, combating hate crimes, etc.