The world is apparently ending on Saturday? Options

[packerfansam]

You can have your opinion, you don't need to be insulting. I don't appreciate being called weak-minded because I believe in God.



In loving memory of my buddy, Toby
1998-2011

[newarchiefan]

You can have your opinion, you don't need to be insulting. I don't appreciate being called weak-minded because I believe in God.

I didn't say God, I said religion.

I can accept that some people are open minded to believing in a higher power, what I cannot accept is the idea of the supposed holy texts of all the major religions that are said to contain the words of God. They are all so demonstrably full of errors and backward thinking that to say any of them is the product of a perfect all powerful deity is just flat out absurd to anyone with even reasonable critical thinking skills imo.

This post has been edited by newarchiefan: May 25th 2011, 2:15 AM

[packerfansam]

Well, I can't speak for the texts about other religions, but my thoughts as far as the Bible goes as to what is meant to be taken word-for-word, what is to be taken as sort of a metaphor and things like that would take too long in a post like this.

But I would still have to disagree, I've known people who are very religious and believe in life after death, and they are some of most strong-minded people I can imagine. It is my personal belief that for many people, including myself, such beliefs are not a weakness, but a strength.



In loving memory of my buddy, Toby
1998-2011

[katharinekatkat]

I didn't say God, I said religion.

I can accept that some people are open minded to believing in a higher power, what I cannot accept is the idea of the supposed holy texts of all the major religions that are said to contain the words of God. They are all so demonstrably full of errors and backward thinking that to say any of them is the product of a perfect all powerful deity is just flat out absurd to anyone with even reasonable critical thinking skills imo.

I agree.

Believing in a Higher Power is perfectly fine...but to put all of this importance and significance in a MAN-WRITTEN book (The Bible) is absolutely insane. Those aren't the words of God because the book was written by men and therefore, it is not perfect. It has been translated, reformulated, re-written so many times in the course of our history. It has been influenced by VERY powerful people (country leaders, religious leaders etc...) over the course of time to become what THEY wanted it to be and has, therefore, deviated from it's original form.

Like Oprah said in her last show today, God is life and love. If you feel alive or if you feel love for someone or something, that's God's approval to you that what you are doing is "right". Let's not base ourselves on the literal lines of a book in which was WRITTEN BY MEN. Men are not perfect...God is.

This post has been edited by katharinekatkat: May 25th 2011, 2:23 PM

[packerfansam]

I agree.

Believing in a Higher Power is perfectly fine...but to put all of this importance and significance in a MAN-WRITTEN book (The Bible) is absolutely insane. Those aren't the words of God because the book was written by men and therefore, it is not perfect. It has been translated, reformulated, re-written so many times in the course of our history. It has been influenced by VERY powerful people (country leaders, religious leaders etc...) over the course of time to become what THEY wanted it to be and has, therefore, deviated from it's original form.

Like Oprah said in her last show today, God is life and love. If you feel alive or if you feel love for someone or something, that's God's approval to you that what you are doing is "right". Let's not base ourselves on the literal lines of a book in which was WRITTEN BY MEN. Men are not perfect...God is.

This is something I can somewhat agree with. Again, I can't speak for other religions and their texts. I'm a Christian, and so I'm just gonna stay with what I know and believe. The Bible, for example, has gone under many different translations, and perhaps has been partially shaped by some of the influential people in the times of those translations, so some of the subtle details may be different and up for debate. Even if every word in it is perfect and directly from God, there are still people who focus on different things. Some, like this Harold Camping person, seem to like to pick and choose things to use to judge and condemn people (Harold Camping also seems to continuously overlook the parts about how we as humans won't be able to predict Judgment Day). I, and the people I surround myself with, believe that the sections about love, forgiveness and non-judgment overrule sections that some people translate as justification to condemn others. But even in all these different versions of the Bible, the basis of it is consistent - God created the universe, God sent Jesus to us, Jesus died in atonement for our sins. Those things are there in each version, and for Christians, it is obviously the very basis of our religion. It's some of the other things like how to interpret what it says about homosexuality, or other religions, or women, and other things like that that cause debate and sometimes even tension not just with other religious sects, but even amongst branches of Christianity itself. It's in situations such as that that I just try to do what I truly feel in my heart, soul, and mind is the right thing, and I think God is okay with that. And I think that's all anyone can do. So, I think that it's fair to debate some of the differences and 'tweaks' that some people have made to it over the years, the basic message of the Bible is consistent.

And, yes, I thought what Oprah said was very beautiful.



In loving memory of my buddy, Toby
1998-2011

[kamil24]

Religion is for the weak minded who cannot face their own mortality.

[*Christy*]

I agree.

Believing in a Higher Power is perfectly fine...but to put all of this importance and significance in a MAN-WRITTEN book (The Bible) is absolutely insane. Those aren't the words of God because the book was written by men and therefore, it is not perfect. It has been translated, reformulated, re-written so many times in the course of our history. It has been influenced by VERY powerful people (country leaders, religious leaders etc...) over the course of time to become what THEY wanted it to be and has, therefore, deviated from it's original form.

Like Oprah said in her last show today, God is life and love. If you feel alive or if you feel love for someone or something, that's God's approval to you that what you are doing is "right". Let's not base ourselves on the literal lines of a book in which was WRITTEN BY MEN. Men are not perfect...God is.

What Oprah said is just a flimsy excuse for all of us to do exactly as we please. If you don't want to try to live up to God's standards, fine. Do your own thing, That's your choice. But don't go around telling lies about God's holy laws and commandments being man made. It's just wishful thinking and it's dangerous. There will be a hefty price to pay in the end.

This post has been edited by *Christy*: May 28th 2011, 12:20 PM

[solastalgia]

What Oprah said is just a flimsy excuse for all of us to do exactly as we please. If you don't want to try to live up to God's standards, fine. Do your own thing, That's your choice. But don't go around telling lies about God's holy laws and commandments being man made. It's just wishful thinking and it's dangerous. There will be a hefty price to pay in the end.

I'm glad God sat down, had a chat with you about everything that was right or wrong, and entrusted you with stamping out every different interpretation.

[bumnummies]

What Oprah said is just a flimsy excuse for all of us to do exactly as we please. If you don't want to try to live up to God's standards, fine. Do your own thing, That's your choice. But don't go around telling lies about God's holy laws and commandments being man made. It's just wishful thinking and it's dangerous. There will be a hefty price to pay in the end.

Sorry Christy but I think it's great that we have religion and yes, I believe in a higher power. But it's FACT that the Bible is not only written by man, but it wasn't even transcribed into print when these events happened. Moreover, the bible has been translated over and over again over time, and whose to say that someone with an agenda didn't change something... or a simple translation mistake was made. I think it's great to believe in something, but you have to realize that the words in the bible are not the exact words from God, or the exact words from Jesus, or Moses, or anyone else.

I think the Bible can be used as a great guideline for life, and if following it to the letter is your choice then I commend you for making it, but that is YOUR CHOICE. It doesn't change the fact that believers in God - people who consider themselves, Christian, don't have to believe everything in the Bible. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a history book then a word-by-word doctrine to follow.

And to reaffirm, saying that the bible was written by man (which it was, that's an indisputable fact) is not a lie.

[*Christy*]

I'm glad God sat down, had a chat with you about everything that was right or wrong, and entrusted you with stamping out every different interpretation.

And I'm sorry you're so blind.

Sorry Christy but I think it's great that we have religion and yes, I believe in a higher power. But it's FACT that the Bible is not only written by man, but it wasn't even transcribed into print when these events happened. Moreover, the bible has been translated over and over again over time, and whose to say that someone with an agenda didn't change something... or a simple translation mistake was made. I think it's great to believe in something, but you have to realize that the words in the bible are not the exact words from God, or the exact words from Jesus, or Moses, or anyone else.

I think the Bible can be used as a great guideline for life, and if following it to the letter is your choice then I commend you for making it, but that is YOUR CHOICE. It doesn't change the fact that believers in God - people who consider themselves, Christian, don't have to believe everything in the Bible. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a history book then a word-by-word doctrine to follow.

And to reaffirm, saying that the bible was written by man (which it was, that's an indisputable fact) is not a lie.

The Bible was transcribed by men, I know that. I'm not stupid. BUT (To quote from this webpage http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-inspired.html)

God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God. The Bible itself claims that every word in every part of the Bible comes from God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Because the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, we can conclude that they are also inerrant and authoritative. A correct view of God will lead us to a correct view of His Word. Because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely perfect, His Word will by its very nature have the same characteristics. The same verses that establish the inspiration of the Scriptures also establish that it is both inerrant and authoritative. Without a doubt the Bible is what it claims to be—the undeniable, authoritative, Word of God to humanity.

Sorry, but the mark of a real Christian is a love for others and obedience to God’s Word. They're someone who has put their faith and trust in Jesus. If you're a Christian, you love God and want serve to Him. You strive to live a holy life that is pleasing to God according to His standards, not your own or the world's.

No matter what the cost.

This post has been edited by *Christy*: May 29th 2011, 4:28 PM

[bumnummies]

Have you ever played the game "telephone" ? It describes my point PERFECTLY. you're putting a great deal of faith into believing that today's bible is an exact translation of God's words over 2000 years ago.

[*Christy*]

Have you ever played the game "telephone" ? It describes my point PERFECTLY. you're putting a great deal of faith into believing that today's bible is an exact translation of God's words over 2000 years ago.

Did it ever occur to you that God has the power to insure that His Word stays intact over the centuries?
And through the Holy Spirit He helps us to understand it.

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

Psalm 119:89 Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

[sneaky]

Did it ever occur to you that God has the power to insure that His Word stays intact over the centuries?
And through the Holy Spirit He helps us to understand it.

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

Psalm 119:89 Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

If he indeed said anything to man in the first place...

[packerfansam]

Did it ever occur to you that God has the power to insure that His Word stays intact over the centuries?
And through the Holy Spirit He helps us to understand it.

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

1 Peter 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

Psalm 119:89 Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

I do believe God has the power to make sure His Word is translated the way He wants it to be, even through language barriers and changes over the years. However, some powerful people with ill intentions could still have gone through and changed things from they way they're supposed to be to the way they want them to be. For example, many people have used some of the 'words' of Saint Paul as reasons to look down on women and not let them become active members of the church. Now, several historians have found evidence that Saint Paul never actually spoke or wrote some of the phrases, and that they were added by men 70-80 years after Paul's death as a way to hold authority over women. Some of these things that were potentially added by these men seem to act as a direct contradiction to possibly Paul's most famous statement, recorded in Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." But even without wrong-doers messing with the Bible, people could read the words as they were meant to be, and come to a different conclusion as to how they should live by them. For example, some people take God telling Adam and Eve and Noah and his sons in Genesis to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."/"Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth." as an order for everyone, that it's a sin to not have children. However, many feel that marriage and children is not necessary for everyone. By rule, priests and nuns of the Roman Catholic Church can't get married and have children, except for rare circumstances. Jesus was never married and never had children, yet he's supposed to be the only man that ever lived to have never committed a sin. So, that idea doesn't seem to make sense, but nevertheless it's how some people read it.



In loving memory of my buddy, Toby
1998-2011

[solastalgia]

And I'm sorry you're so blind.

Friend, just because I have a different world view than you does not mean I'm "blind". My eyes are wide open to everything around me. To pretend like there's an absolute right or wrong in this world is to completely disregard the diversity of the human race that the God both you and I believe in created.

At the end of the day, all is open to interpretation and we're fooling ourselves if we think we can speak for God. That's why I never tell anyone they're wrong in their religious beliefs. Because who am I to say I'm more "right"? My religion brings me peace, identity, and structure. And so I follow it. But the same time, I absorb what all others have to say because the world is so diverse and it would be a shame if I closed my mind to it, and wasn't able to learn from it.

"Real Christians," "real Muslims," "real Jews" - it's all just so pretentious. Those terms are thrown around by people with superiority complexes, and said so others think they're not good enough somehow. We are all human, and we all live our lives in our own way and have our own relationships with God or whatever we worship. There is no communal "right" when it comes to spirituality. It is only personal.

This post has been edited by malfunctiones: May 30th 2011, 9:12 AM

[*Christy*]

Friend, just because I have a different world view than you does not mean I'm "blind". My eyes are wide open to everything around me. To pretend like there's an absolute right or wrong in this world is to completely disregard the diversity of the human race that the God both you and I believe in created.

At the end of the day, all is open to interpretation and we're fooling ourselves if we think we can speak for God. That's why I never tell anyone they're wrong in their religious beliefs. Because who am I to say I'm more "right"? My religion brings me peace, identity, and structure. And so I follow it. But the same time, I absorb what all others have to say because the world is so diverse and it would be a shame if I closed my mind to it, and wasn't able to learn from it.

"Real Christians," "real Muslims," "real Jews" - it's all a bunch of bs that's thrown around by people with superiority complexes, said so others think they're not good enough. We are all human, and we all live our lives in our own way and have our own relationships with God or whatever we worship. There is no communal "right" when it comes to spirituality. It is only personal.

Very smooth. Nice try. But, I know better. To say all the different religions in the world are equally valid, that something that can be true for some people but wrong for others is absurd. There is either one true path or none at all. They can't all be correct.

Not so. Whichever faith system you're into, either you believe in and stick to the basic tenets of said faith or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

There is one God, who gave us one path to Him: His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God. That's it. Everything else is a lie. People making up their own rules so they can have their own way.

If you don't want to believe what I'm saying, fine. Everyone has free will to choose for themselves what they'll do with their lives. That includes where they'll be spending eternity once their lives are over.


Thanks everyone for this lively discussion. It's been fun.

[Pizzle]

The rapture didn't happen, and somehow religion is still considered legitimate. Keep it up, Harold Camping.

[packerfansam]

The rapture didn't happen, and somehow religion is still considered legitimate. Keep it up, Harold Camping.

Harold Camping is not speaking for all Christians, he is speaking himself and his own delusions, what he says shouldn't have any bearing on the legitimacy of religion. The vast majority of Christians, including myself, did not and do not support what he's been preaching. He's just giving the rest of us a bad name.



In loving memory of my buddy, Toby
1998-2011

[solastalgia]

Very smooth. Nice try. But, I know better. To say all the different religions in the world are equally valid, that something that can be true for some people but wrong for others is absurd. There is either one true path or none at all. They can't all be correct.

Not so. Whichever faith system you're into, either you believe in and stick to the basic tenets of said faith or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

There is one God, who gave us one path to Him: His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God. That's it. Everything else is a lie. People making up their own rules so they can have their own way.

If you don't want to believe what I'm saying, fine. Everyone has free will to choose for themselves what they'll do with their lives. That includes where they'll be spending eternity once their lives are over.
Thanks everyone for this lively discussion. It's been fun.

"Validity" does not exist. People follow what fulfills them. Period. No one knows what is "right" or "true" or "absolute" because we do not know everything. We are not God. We merely tap into whatever world of spirituality completes us (and for some, that's no religion at all).

Not everything is in black and white, my friend.

Think about this: I am a Muslim and believe in the same God that you do. I believe in Jesus but do not believe he was the son of God. Now, what I believe fulfills ME. And you don't see me telling you you're WRONG for what you believe in because, clearly, your belief system works for you and I respect that. However, the same belief system that you have would not work for me or for many others. Does that mean we're wrong? Does that mean we're right? No. That's an incredibly limited way of thinking. We cannot know "truth" until we know everything. And we don't, and most likely never will.

So, I have a good relationship with God and my faith is right for me. But I don't criticize the faiths of other people because they are not me. And I believe God intended it to be that way.

The diversity of religion is so, so beautiful. I only hope that you'll be able to open your eyes to it someday.

[newarchiefan]

What Oprah said is just a flimsy excuse for all of us to do exactly as we please. If you don't want to try to live up to God's standards, fine. Do your own thing, That's your choice. But don't go around telling lies about God's holy laws

You're right. I just can't live up to those standards. So I won't lie. I will tell you exactly what laws I just don't feel like I can live up to.

I don't think slaves should have to obey their masters. (NT)

I don't think women should be disallowed from speaking in church. (NT)

I don't think women should be forced to wear a head covering in public. (NT)

I don't think that rape victims should have to marry their attackers. (OT)

I don't think that gay people should be killed. (OT)

I don't think that disobedient children should be killed. (OT)

I don't think that pregnant women should be ripped open with swords if they rebel. (OT)

I just can't bring myself to live up to those "holy" laws.

This post has been edited by newarchiefan: May 30th 2011, 3:08 PM