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> Young student with CCW permit forced to disarm when on campus and promptly raped.
ColonelKlink
post Apr 9th 2011, 5:31 PM
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Liberals did it again. This woman met the state requirements for carrying a concealed weapon. Her university forced her to relinquish her constitutional rights. Walking back to her car after a class she was raped and because this occurred on campus she didn't have access to her firearm, though her rapist had access to his firearm.

What is it about liberals which motivates them to fight a war against constitutional rights? Free speech is being attacked by liberals. Rights to carry are being attacked by liberals. Rights to associate with the people of your own choosing are being attacked by liberals.

Why would anyone want to join the liberal movement?

QUOTE
Across the country, lawmakers are debating whether universities should let students and faculty with permits carry their concealed weapon on campus. Those who want to put an end to such gun-free zones have found an unlikely hero in a petite, soft spoken, young woman who wonders why colleges protect most Constitutional rights, but not the one that matters most when staring into the face of a violent criminal.

Amanda Collins, 25, is a wife and new mom, and a concealed weapon permit holder for years. At her father's law office in Reno, she showed us the 9-mm Glock she carries for her safety.

"It's got a pretty standard magazine," she said, "and night sights so you can see in the dark when you're aiming."

However, Collins couldn't aim her gun at the serial rapist who attacked her at the University of Nevada at Reno, where she was a student. That's because, like most public colleges outside of Utah and Colorado, UNR is a "gun free" zone. The rule required her to leave her gun at home, leaving her defenseless the one time she needed its protection most.

In October of 2007, while walking to her car after a night class, Collins was grabbed from behind in a university parking garage less than 300 yards from a campus police office. The school's "gun-free" designation meant nothing to James Biela, a serial rapist with a gun of his own, who saw Collins as an easy target. "He put a firearm to my temple," she recounted, "clocked off the safety, and told me not to say anything, before he raped me."


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sneaky
post Apr 9th 2011, 7:08 PM
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QUOTE(ColonelKlink @ Apr 9th 2011, 6:31 PM) *

Liberals did it again. This woman met the state requirements for carrying a concealed weapon. Her university forced her to relinquish her constitutional rights. Walking back to her car after a class she was raped and because this occurred on campus she didn't have access to her firearm, though her rapist had access to his firearm.

What is it about liberals which motivates them to fight a war against constitutional rights? Free speech is being attacked by liberals. Rights to carry are being attacked by liberals. Rights to associate with the people of your own choosing are being attacked by liberals.

Why would anyone want to join the liberal movement?

Thats pretty unfortunate but I dont think its a good idea to allow guns at university. At least at my university, we have enough bomb and gun attack threats from attention starved psychopaths. Its really hard to screen for these tendencies in people and thus someone seemingly normal could get their hands on a firearm.

I'm not against owning or carrying a firearm but in massive public settings like this i dont think they should be allowed. This is a crappy incident but with Americans overly assertive tendencies I think it would cause more harm than good.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 9th 2011, 7:37 PM
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QUOTE(sneaky @ Apr 9th 2011, 5:08 PM) *

Thats pretty unfortunate but I dont think its a good idea to allow guns at university.

Explain this to us all - why do you think that you should have a say in whether another person can exercise their constitutional rights? Do I have a say in forcing you to become a christian or a muslim? Do I have a say in forcing you to make statements that you don't endorse? Do I have a say in forcing you to be friends with a person you don't like or to work for a company that you don't want to work for? Does my opinion on any of these aspects of your life carry any weight at all? Should it? Or are these all none of my business because in each case you are freely exercising your constitutional rights?



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sneaky
post Apr 10th 2011, 9:45 AM
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QUOTE(ColonelKlink @ Apr 9th 2011, 8:37 PM) *

Explain this to us all - why do you think that you should have a say in whether another person can exercise their constitutional rights? Do I have a say in forcing you to become a christian or a muslim? Do I have a say in forcing you to make statements that you don't endorse? Do I have a say in forcing you to be friends with a person you don't like or to work for a company that you don't want to work for? Does my opinion on any of these aspects of your life carry any weight at all? Should it? Or are these all none of my business because in each case you are freely exercising your constitutional rights?


First off I cant become muslim as I was not born in that region. Second, none of those hypothetical situations have nothing to do with the safety of those around me or their happiness. It only would affect you and me. And contrary to what die hard republicans like to think America is not all about ME. It is that mindset that leads people to be overly aggresive and develop personality traits where they SHOUULDNT carry a gun because they cant handle the responsibility.

Like I said I'm all for having a gun in the home or the car because the conflict is between you and the rober, abuser, or potential robber. But when you take an overly aggresive person with a gun and put him in the midst of THOUSANDS of people-what do you think is likely to happen?


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 10:22 AM
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Why was the rapist allowed a gun? Or why did he not have it taken away like she did?
But I agree with sneaky... I don't think that a gun should just be carried around with you in public like that. A home, sure, but not when there's that many people there. I just think they need to massively tighten up security. If they were that close to the campus police office, why did nobody notice? Weren't there cameras or anything? So many rapes/assaults/attacks occur at universities and nobody ever finds out, it's pathetic. The rapist is taking away the victim's rights and so much more, but nobody seems to care or do anything about it.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 2:36 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 8:22 AM) *

Why was the rapist allowed a gun? Or why did he not have it taken away like she did?

Because criminals don't respect the law. This isn't a very complex issue. You can pass all the laws you want, as restrictive as you want, and they don't matter to criminals.
QUOTE
But I agree with sneaky... I don't think that a gun should just be carried around with you in public like that.

It doesn't really matter what you think. It's awfully presumptuous of you to think that your opinion should dictate how someone else exercises their constitutional rights. What you're doing is the same as me saying that I think you should be barefoot and pregnant, married to someone I choose for you. What does my opinion matter in your life? Why should I presume that I have the right to dictate to you how you live? Why should my opinion have any bearing on the freedoms you enjoy by exercising your human rights?
QUOTE
I just think they need to massively tighten up security.

Most people don't want to live in a Nazi or Soviet police state. Tightening up security means stripping people of their freedom and giving police very, very intrusive powers to stop and search people, to hold them for indeterminate periods, to arrest them at their discretion. The more that you increase the size of government the more you lessen the freedom that people enjoy.
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If they were that close to the campus police office, why did nobody notice?

Because police are not omnipresent. Police hardly ever prevent crimes from occurring, rather they are there, like a clean-up crew, to deal with the aftermath of crimes.
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Weren't there cameras or anything?

You're a woman, so tell us, would you feel safer being able to prevent a rape against you or would you feel safer knowing that when you are raped that the crime will be captured on video and can be used to help try to identify the rapist?

So what if there were cameras. How do you imagine that a camera prevents a rape from occurring?
QUOTE
So many rapes/assaults/attacks occur at universities and nobody ever finds out, it's pathetic. The rapist is taking away the victim's rights and so much more, but nobody seems to care or do anything about it.

That's because too many people think along the lines of you and sneaky. You all focus on the after-rape processes. More police means more personnel to investigate the crime after it happened. More cameras means more evidence to use after the crime happened. Harsher sentences means more punishment for the rapist after the crime has happened. More victim counseling means more aid for victims after the crime has happened.

People have a fundamental human right to self-defense. Both of you are more than happy to strip people of their right. The best method of reducing rapes is to stop them before they occur. Using a firearm to scare away a rapist means that a rape didn't occur. Using a firearm to shoot a rapist means that a rape in progress has been stopped at the level of physical assault.

People have a right to self-defense. Liberals want to change that into people having a right to have police investigate crimes after they have been inflicted upon people, even if those people are now dead after having been victims of the crime. Most people understand that it is better to prevent a crime rather than having police investigate a crime after it has occurred.


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bumnummies
post Apr 10th 2011, 2:42 PM
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QUOTE(sneaky @ Apr 10th 2011, 10:45 AM) *

First off I cant become muslim as I was not born in that region.


Actually that's not true, technically you can convert to whatever religion you want to, there have been cases of people in North American choosing to convert to Islam. Plenty of people convert to Christianity, or Judaism, etc etc. wink.gif

Just to, you know... keep facts as facts. thumbsup.gif


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 2:50 PM
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QUOTE(ColonelKlink @ Apr 10th 2011, 3:36 PM) *

Because criminals don't respect the law. This isn't a very complex issue. You can pass all the laws you want, as restrictive as you want, and they don't matter to criminals.

It doesn't really matter what you think. It's awfully presumptuous of you to think that your opinion should dictate how someone else exercises their constitutional rights. What you're doing is the same as me saying that I think you should be barefoot and pregnant, married to someone I choose for you. What does my opinion matter in your life? Why should I presume that I have the right to dictate to you how you live? Why should my opinion have any bearing on the freedoms you enjoy by exercising your human rights?

Most people don't want to live in a Nazi or Soviet police state. Tightening up security means stripping people of their freedom and giving police very, very intrusive powers to stop and search people, to hold them for indeterminate periods, to arrest them at their discretion. The more that you increase the size of government the more you lessen the freedom that people enjoy.

Because police are not omnipresent. Police hardly ever prevent crimes from occurring, rather they are there, like a clean-up crew, to deal with the aftermath of crimes.

You're a woman, so tell us, would you feel safer being able to prevent a rape against you or would you feel safer knowing that when you are raped that the crime will be captured on video and can be used to help try to identify the rapist?

So what if there were cameras. How do you imagine that a camera prevents a rape from occurring?

That's because too many people think along the lines of you and sneaky. You all focus on the after-rape processes. More police means more personnel to investigate the crime after it happened. More cameras means more evidence to use after the crime happened. Harsher sentences means more punishment for the rapist after the crime has happened. More victim counseling means more aid for victims after the crime has happened.

People have a fundamental human right to self-defense. Both of you are more than happy to strip people of their right. The best method of reducing rapes is to stop them before they occur. Using a firearm to scare away a rapist means that a rape didn't occur. Using a firearm to shoot a rapist means that a rape in progress has been stopped at the level of physical assault.

People have a right to self-defense. Liberals want to change that into people having a right to have police investigate crimes after they have been inflicted upon people, even if those people are now dead after having been victims of the crime. Most people understand that it is better to prevent a crime rather than having police investigate a crime after it has occurred.


Okay first of all what I meant about why didn't the guy get his gun taken away was wasn't there a search or anything of the sort? Why did the woman get the gun taken away but the guy was in the same place and he was able to have it? Shouldn't it have been taken away?

By tightening up security, you'd be able to prevent more rapes and attacks from happening. Having cameras and police constantly watching, you'd be able to prevent more rapes. If a police man saw someone being attacked on a camera, they'd be able to get there and prevent it from happening. That's how I think a camera could prevent something like that from happening. I'm not stripping people of their rights. That's why I think there needs to be more security in order to watch and be able to prevent them. Violence isn't always the answer.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:08 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 12:50 PM) *

Okay first of all what I meant about why didn't the guy get his gun taken away was wasn't there a search or anything of the sort? Why did the woman get the gun taken away but the guy was in the same place and he was able to have it? Shouldn't it have been taken away?

Because her gun wasn't taken away via a stop and search. The university imposed a regulation on the students and she had to comply or face the penalty of being expelled if she was caught with a firearm on her body, notwithstanding the fact that the state had licensed her to carry a concealed weapon.

She cared about not wanting to be expelled. The criminal, if a student, didn't care about the expulsion penalty, and if not a student, the expulsion penalty didn't matter at all.

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By tightening up security, you'd be able to prevent more rapes and attacks from happening. Having cameras and police constantly watching, you'd be able to prevent more rapes.


No, not at all. Look at the situation in London, a city that is so wired with video surveillance that it's literally impossible to walk the streets there, any streets, without being recorded on camera:
Massive investment in CCTV cameras to prevent crime in the UK has failed to have a significant impact, despite billions of pounds spent on the new technology, a senior police officer piloting a new database has warned. Only 3% of street robberies in London were solved using CCTV images, despite the fact that Britain has more security cameras than any other country in Europe.

Cameras are not effective deterrents to crime, they are only tools which are supposed to aid in the investigation of crime by providing police with visual evidence of the crime.
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If a police man saw someone being attacked on a camera, they'd be able to get there and prevent it from happening.

This doesn't make any sense. The police cannot prevent something from happening when they're responding because they saw it happening. That's logically impossible. All the police can do in this situation is to stop the crime from progressing further than it has. If by watching video monitors in their central police station they see you being dragged into the bushes near a sidewalk and a rape commencing, they can then send out a police car and 10 minutes later they can either stop the rape from progressing any further than it has, call the victim support personnel to help you deal with the psychological impact of the rape that you just suffered through or call the coroner's wagon to pick up your body. By watching the rape against you commence they are in no way able to PREVENT the rape from commencing.


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:11 PM
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QUOTE(ColonelKlink @ Apr 10th 2011, 4:08 PM) *

This doesn't make any sense. The police cannot prevent something from happening when they're responding because they saw it happening. That's logically impossible. All the police can do in this situation is to stop the crime from progressing further than it has. If by watching video monitors in their central police station they see you being dragged into the bushes near a sidewalk and a rape commencing, they can then send out a police car and 10 minutes later they can either stop the rape from progressing any further than it has, call the victim support personnel to help you deal with the psychological impact of the rape that you just suffered through or call the coroner's wagon to pick up your body. By watching the rape against you commence they are in no way able to PREVENT the rape from commencing.

I meant actual campus police/security guards.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:28 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 1:11 PM) *

I meant actual campus police/security guards.

It doesn't matter. Look closely at what you wrote:
If a police man saw someone being attacked on a camera, they'd be able to get there and prevent it from happening.
If campus police SAW someone being ATTACKED on a camera, they'd be able to get there and PREVENT it from happening.

Do you see how that is logically impossible? The only reason that the campus police are responding is because they see an attack happening. It's now way too late to PREVENT the attack from happening. In order to prevent the attack from happening the campus police have to be right there alongside the woman at the instance that the rapist commences the attack. If the campus police are not right there, alongside the woman, then the rape has commenced and all the campus police can do is respond after the fact. It doesn't matter if they're 1 minute away or 10 minutes away, the rape is still in progress for 1 minute or 10 minutes.

Police respond to crimes, they rarely prevent crimes. Police usually respond to armed robberies. On rare occasions there are stupid criminals who try to commit armed robberies of convenience stores at the very moment that the police are in the store buying themselves a slurrpy and so the police prevent the crime from progressing.


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:31 PM
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Okay, whatever. You'll never stop a rapist no matter what the precautions are. Bye.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:36 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 1:31 PM) *

Okay, whatever. You'll never stop a rapist no matter what the precautions are. Bye.

You most certainly can stop a rape from occurring. You draw a gun on the rapist and stop him cold in his tracks. He either runs away or moves towards you. If he runs away you don't fire your gun however if he moves towards you you fire your gun at him and either disable him or kill him. In all cases the rape has not been committed.

A dead, or wounded, attempted rapist means that you are not a rape victim.


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:38 PM
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Yeah, except I think that killing someone would probably be just as emotionally scarring as being raped would. I've never killed someone, though, so I wouldn't know.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:47 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 1:38 PM) *

Yeah, except I think that killing someone would probably be just as emotionally scarring as being raped would. I've never killed someone, though, so I wouldn't know.

Start a poll and see how women feel about this topic. That would probably be an interesting debate, a debate that I couldn't participate in (see, added bonus.) Ask them the following question:
Are you better off, emotionally and physically, by being raped compared to not being raped but harming or killing the rapist?
Secondly, you should have the freedom to choose being raped over defending yourself but you shouldn't deny other women the right to defend themselves when faced with a rape being inflicted upon them.


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:52 PM
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I'm not going to start a poll because it isn't really going to change my opinion on it.
Defending yourself doesn't always work, though.


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bumnummies
post Apr 10th 2011, 3:55 PM
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Funny, people on Canadian college and university campuses aren't packing. And yes, stuff happens, because I know CK will dig out some article where there were campus assaults on women at York University... however. If an individual uses every normal precaution, such as, oh... WALKING IN PAIRS/GROUPS like any smart woman knows, carrying a rape whistle, etc, crime can be prevented without having to resort to carrying guns, knives, etc. wink.gif Pepper spray can also be effective.... Basically, using common sense is the biggest thing you can do to prevent crime from happening to you. whistling.gif There are groups on campuses that can help you become more knowledgeable in personal safety, and I'm guessing that this particular individual didn't seek that kind of assistance.

Furthermore, the campus itself can be blamed for not having adequate security measures... properly lit paths and lit up emergency buttons that someone can run to, which immediately calls security to your location (they're at the school all night at my campus). Also, obviously more campus police also is necessary and as juniorfan4eva, security cameras - because a lot of times, if a perp knows he's on camera, he won't do anything if he fears being caught. wink.gif

PS Guns are bad, yo. Whether or not you ever shoot it, it means you're prepared to kill someone, and potentially even have someone use it against you. thumbsup.gif

This post has been edited by bumnummies: Apr 10th 2011, 4:00 PM


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 4:20 PM
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QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 10th 2011, 1:55 PM) *

Funny, people on Canadian college and university campuses aren't packing. . . . . .Basically, using common sense is the biggest thing you can do to prevent crime from happening to you. whistling.gif


So when Gamil Gharbi killed 14 women in the Montreal Massacre, did the fact that the women were sitting in a brightly lit classroom help protect them? One woman reaching into her purse, while crouching behind a desk, withdrawing her firearm and shooting Gharbi in the head would have saved countless lives. All these women were helpless and unable to defend themselves and were sitting ducks as Gharbi methodically killed one after the other.

QUOTE
PS Guns are bad, yo. Whether or not you ever shoot it, it means you're prepared to kill someone, and potentially even have someone use it against you. thumbsup.gif

I'm prepared to kill anyone if they are threatening my life and safety or the life and safety of my loved ones, and I might actually be prepared, depending on circumstances, to kill someone who is threatening the life and safety of a stranger.

If your own personal beliefs are that you'd rather be raped or killed rather than defend yourself, I'm not arguing that you MUST protect yourself. All I'm arguing is that you shouldn't impose your willingness to die or willingness to suffer rape onto other people.


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bumnummies
post Apr 10th 2011, 4:27 PM
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QUOTE(ColonelKlink @ Apr 10th 2011, 5:20 PM) *

So when Gamil Gharbi killed 14 women in the Montreal Massacre, did the fact that the women were sitting in a brightly lit classroom help protect them? One woman reaching into her purse, while crouching behind a desk, withdrawing her firearm and shooting Gharbi in the head would have saved countless lives. All these women were helpless and unable to defend themselves and were sitting ducks as Gharbi methodically killed one after the other.


No, better security could have prevented that. Heck, better gun control would prevent a lot. But the NRA wouldn't like that. whistling.gif

But lets discuss the massacre of Kindergarden students in Ireland, while we're on the subject? flowers.gif Should Kindergarden teachers be packing guns? How about the 5 year old students? Or how about this 11-year old girl who was raped by 5 male schoolmates in the school bathroom? Should she have a gun?



This post has been edited by bumnummies: Apr 10th 2011, 4:33 PM


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 4:54 PM
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QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 10th 2011, 2:27 PM) *

No, better security could have prevented that. Heck, better gun control would prevent a lot. But the NRA wouldn't like that. whistling.gif

"Better security" is like saying that fairies would have prevented the crime. Exactly what form of better security? A strip search, with full body cavity examination, for every person who is entering a school building might do the trick - that is, after all, the direction that we're moving in with regards to airline security.

You're just making a trade-off here - everyone's liberty is taken away in the name of security. As ben Franklin noted: "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."

As for your comment on gun control, look back at the OP. The campus rule was a form of gun control. The honest students complied with the rule and the criminals, as is their nature, didn't comply. Advantage = criminals.
QUOTE
But lets discuss the massacre of Kindergarden students in Ireland, while we're on the subject? flowers.gif Should Kindergarden teachers be packing guns?

Yes. When parents place the safety of their children in someone else's hands that other person should be prepared to safeguard the children in their care.

The odds of a kindergarten teacher having to use a firearm in such circumstances are very long, but there is no negative cost to having the teacher armed. It's a form of very low cost insurance. The minimal cost of providing the weapon and the training and updating the training over the years when no threats are present are counterbalanced against the almost infinite costs associated with a parent who loses a child through such a massacre.

QUOTE

When people have firearms they are held accountable for how they use them. An 11 year old does not have adult-level judgment and so they can't be held accountable to adult standards. A 23 year old woman can be held accountable for her use of a firearm in a negligible manner. She can decide whether a situation warrants self-defense or not and she can be held accountable by her peers during a trail, if it comes to that, on whether her use of self-defense was justified. A woman who randomly shoot men who are walking down the street is going to be held accountable. A woman who shoots a rapist as he is attacking her is not going to be held accountable.

PS. Most of your questions are stupid because they are divorced from reality and are caricatures of the issue. Who exactly is advocating that 5 year olds be given firearms? Since when did a discussion of adult women, licensed by the state to carry a concealed women, morph into a discussion of 5 year olds carrying concealed weapons?


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