God., What do you believe? Options

[adamsmo]

That just enables complacency and ignorance. It enables you to just say "Oh, God did it!" instead of finding real, observable answers. What would we know today if people just said "Eh, gravity's a pretty good guy, I'll never understood it and wasn't meant to, too, and isn't afraid of anything." Same goes for everything acheived by the scientific method. We just lean on an archaic magical being to explain things for us, why exactly? We apply naturalism to everything else that we know, but give an abundant amount of faith to a source of magic that has not once been observable to us or demonstrated its existence in any way?

This post has been edited by adamsmo: Aug 19th 2009, 11:32 PM

[Imagination<3]

I believe in god, but I'm not really into organized religion. I dunno, at church they spend most of the time judging other's beliefs, and it's not really about believing anymore...just saying that you go.

[xxStacieLynn]

"I can understand how a man can look down on the earth & be an athiest, but I cannot comprehend how he can look up into the heavens and say there is no God."

^ Pretty much sums up how I feel about God. I LOVE HIM.

[adamsmo]

This video really points out the ridiculous of conventional theism.

[Imagination<3]

"My mind tells me I will never understand God. My heart tells me that I'm not meant to." -Robert Langdon from "Angels and Demons"

That sums up my religious views to a T.

Such a powerful quote. I agree with it. I love God...completely, I just wish people would make it easier for church to be about the belief, not hatred or judging.

[ionlywantu2stay]

So, how can someone actually have free will when everything is essentially predetermined by god?

I guess because God would know what is going to happen if He is omniscient but by giving us free will we are in perfect control over our own actions (even if He knows what we are going to do). We aren't exactly robots.

That just enables complacency and ignorance. It enables you to just say "Oh, God did it!" instead of finding real, observable answers. What would we know today if people just said "Eh, gravity's a pretty good guy, I'll never understood it and wasn't meant to, too, and isn't afraid of anything." Same goes for everything acheived by the scientific method. We just lean on an archaic magical being to explain things for us, why exactly? We apply naturalism to everything else that we know, but give an abundant amount of faith to a source of magic that has not once been observable to us or demonstrated its existence in any way?

The reason people have to give an "abundant amount of faith" is because the question of God's existence cannot be proven via the scientific method. When people learn that science and theology can't be explained the exact same way they'll stop running away from observable answers (I'm looking at literal Creationists here).

[adamsmo]

I guess because God would know what is going to happen if He is omniscient but by giving us free will we are in perfect control over our own actions (even if He knows what we are going to do). We aren't exactly robots.

But if he already knows what we're going to do, doesn't that negate free will? We have no choice to change it if it's already known. I really don't think there is free will in theism.

[adamsmo]

I guess because God would know what is going to happen if He is omniscient but by giving us free will we are in perfect control over our own actions (even if He knows what we are going to do). We aren't exactly robots.
The reason people have to give an "abundant amount of faith" is because the question of God's existence cannot be proven via the scientific method. When people learn that science and theology can't be explained the exact same way they'll stop running away from observable answers (I'm looking at literal Creationists here).

So, unicorns and mermaids also can't be proven via the scientific method. What's more logical about believing in a god than believing in a unicorn? I know you're going for the Creaionists view, but that's something I'll never understand. And I really do wish unicorns were real. Could coming to the conclusion "I was never meant to understand unicorns" sound logical? Why is it a reasonable conclusion for a god?

[limelite~]

So I was posting in another thread, and I was talking about my religious view. This thread seems quite heated, but I'll try to keep up.

So I have been brought up Catholic, a lot of my family is made up of very, very committed catholics, but I don't know. I think it's because my mom isn't really one for religion, and my step-father is pretty much Anti-God, that I am not nearly as sure of my beliefs as others. I've been in Catholic school my whole life, except for six months in a Private school, but that was like, grade 3.

So anyway, I believe in a God. I can't explain what I think it is, I can't begin to comprehend "God". But I believe "he" is a higher power that created me, everyone I know, and everything I know. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not a creationist. I personally find the science in that silly.

I don't think I believe in Jesus. I'm sure he was a real person, at some time or another, but there are way many too variations of him in other religions for me to think of him as one singular son of God. I find the story all a bit scary, to be honest.

Some guy walks into town, claiming he is the son of God, and does some "miracles" and people follow him around. He is then killed on a cross and all of the sins people will ever commit, are then given to him, and he receives the punishment that we should have all gotten. Is that how it goes? Sorry, I don't really read the bible. So yeah, if Jesus already received the punishment for our sin, what's the point of hell? For the people who just don't downright belive in God, I guess? I don't know. Someone smarter than me should know.

I don't know. I'll say more later. It's late.

[sneaky]

So I was posting in another thread, and I was talking about my religious view. This thread seems quite heated, but I'll try to keep up.

So I have been brought up Catholic, a lot of my family is made up of very, very committed catholics, but I don't know. I think it's because my mom isn't really one for religion, and my step-father is pretty much Anti-God, that I am not nearly as sure of my beliefs as others. I've been in Catholic school my whole life, except for six months in a Private school, but that was like, grade 3.

So anyway, I believe in a God. I can't explain what I think it is, I can't begin to comprehend "God". But I believe "he" is a higher power that created me, everyone I know, and everything I know. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not a creationist. I personally find the science in that silly.

I don't think I believe in Jesus. I'm sure he was a real person, at some time or another, but there are way many too variations of him in other religions for me to think of him as one singular son of God. I find the story all a bit scary, to be honest.

Some guy walks into town, claiming he is the son of God, and does some "miracles" and people follow him around. He is then killed on a cross and all of the sins people will ever commit, are then given to him, and he receives the punishment that we should have all gotten. Is that how it goes? Sorry, I don't really read the bible. So yeah, if Jesus already received the punishment for our sin, what's the point of hell? For the people who just don't downright belive in God, I guess? I don't know. Someone smarter than me should know.

I don't know. I'll say more later. It's late.

I agree... I cant really help you much. I mean, to me, the way our bodies work, there has got to be some kind of intelligent designer behind it. And the way the world works all systems -(for the most part save tusnamis and quakes) in harmony...there must be a God. But I dont think we can really comprehend him so I dont really pray or have a relationship with him.
And there is evidence that Jesus or yahweh existed but I just have a very hard time believing the entire bible...too many interpretations, too many translators. And this is a book written thousands of years ago in a culture completely differenf from ours so who knows what was meant by what, ya know? Its not like translating some book from latin american culture to english. Way different...Anyway I dont think I said anything new ha! Fwiw, I grew up Catholic too.

This post has been edited by sneaky: Sep 17th 2009, 6:35 AM

[adamsmo]

I agree... I cant really help you much. I mean, to me, the way our bodies work, there has got to be some kind of intelligent designer behind it. And the way the world works all systems -(for the most part save tusnamis and quakes) in harmony...there must be a God. But I dont think we can really comprehend him so I dont really pray or have a relationship with him.

Are you saying you support the idea of intelligent design (which is just another name for creationism)? Intelligent Design can be quite easily debunked.

The first premise of ID is that if something is complex, it has to have been designed. Thus, the designer itself would have to be complex, and using its first premise would also have to have been designed. Intelligent Design would require some sort of insanely impossible cycle. I'm not sure how one could look at people's bodies and the universe and find it all harmonious - there are continuous battles throughout the universe and even inside your own body. Looking at the human, as well as other orgasnism's bodies, should disincline one to theism, if you ask me. The order of the world is chaos, not order - it merely appears to have order. It didn't always have what we see as order now and it won't have order later into the future.

And there is evidence that Jesus or yahweh existed but I just have a very hard time believing the entire bible...too many interpretations, too many translators. And this is a book written thousands of years ago in a culture completely differenf from ours so who knows what was meant by what, ya know? Its not like translating some book from latin american culture to english. Way different...Anyway I dont think I said anything new ha! Fwiw, I grew up Catholic too.

Jesus most likely did exist, yes. But one of the main reasons I don't believe it should be trusted much is because of the hundreds of revisions hundreds of years after its original inception, attempting to give it historical accuracy (though it fails on many counts in that way, too.)

[sneaky]

Are you saying you support the idea of intelligent design (which is just another name for creationism)? Intelligent Design can be quite easily debunked.

The first premise of ID is that if something is complex, it has to have been designed. Thus, the designer itself would have to be complex, and using its first premise would also have to have been designed. Intelligent Design would require some sort of insanely impossible cycle. I'm not sure how one could look at people's bodies and the universe and find it all harmonious - there are continuous battles throughout the universe and even inside your own body. Looking at the human, as well as other orgasnism's bodies, should disincline one to theism, if you ask me. The order of the world is chaos, not order - it merely appears to have order. It didn't always have what we see as order now and it won't have order later into the future.
Jesus most likely did exist, yes. But one of the main reasons I don't believe it should be trusted much is because of the hundreds of revisions hundreds of years after its original inception, attempting to give it historical accuracy (though it fails on many counts in that way, too.)

Well, I dont know if I believe in GOD then. Like you said the order of our bodies and universe isnt completely harmonious and god is supposed to be all knowing..."perfect, if you will. I just think our bodies our really quite amazing. Im pursuing a psych major so I only have basic background in bio, but our body is so complex. So many nerurotransmitters controlling senses and emotions. There are many steps in the formation of our bodies Each protie or amino acid chain has to be encoded just so. To me that just couldnt be a random mess of things because I surely couldnt come up with a mechanism like that. Like I said our bodies arent perfect but even in a mentally handicapped person there are only a couple of point mutations-a pretty good track record.

As for the bible-I dont know. It just never has brought me much solace. Plus, it seems like, Jainism, per say is just as plausible. It all seems like a bunch of "could be's"

I could be missing your point completely If you're still reading, what do you think caused our solar system?

[adamsmo]

Well, I dont know if I believe in GOD then. Like you said the order of our bodies and universe isnt completely harmonious and god is supposed to be all knowing..."perfect, if you will. I just think our bodies our really quite amazing. Im pursuing a psych major so I only have basic background in bio, but our body is so complex. So many nerurotransmitters controlling senses and emotions. There are many steps in the formation of our bodies Each protie or amino acid chain has to be encoded just so. To me that just couldnt be a random mess of things because I surely couldnt come up with a mechanism like that. Like I said our bodies arent perfect but even in a mentally handicapped person there are only a couple of point mutations-a pretty good track record.

As for the bible-I dont know. It just never has brought me much solace. Plus, it seems like, Jainism, per say is just as plausible. It all seems like a bunch of "could be's"

I could be missing your point completely If you're still reading, what do you think caused our solar system?

I think you're mistaken with your assumption of things coming about "randomly," that is not what any secular atheist would suggest and science doesn't tell us that that would be true. It would be more accurately described as "self-generation," which has been observed in nature many a time with clearly no designer - unless you'd like to suggest that something like snowflakes are designed before they fall down from the heavens. They self-generate. Self-generation is a vital part of biology and nature in general. I'd recommend reading up on that - it is quite fascinating how often it happens.

Think about how on earth this "miracle" of Earth could even conceivably be a miracle. There are literally BILLIONS, if not trillions of planets. The vast majority don't support life, but there are strong chances that there are numerous ones who do. Why does humanity have to be so egotistical to believe that the wonder of Earth is just so miraculous when chances are it's very likely to occur all throught the universe?

Simply put, there was the Big Bang Theory (which name originates from its detractors - there was no "bang" to speak of), which doesn't explain the existence of all of existence or anything on an enormous scale, it merely explains how the universe is in its current state, it is not a theory of the origin of all.

Most importantly, what about information and complexity implies design in any way whatsoever? Proponents of the psuedoscience of "intelligent design" suggest just that. Intelligent Design is quote possibly one of the most self-deating hypotheses in modern history.

The first premise of intelligent design is that the existence of complexity implies design. Why? It's merely a statement of opinion and can't even qualify as a scientific hypothesis because there is absolutely nothing to gather any correlation between complexity and design.

However, the biggest fallacy with intelligent design is its actual designer. An intelligent designer would have to be complex himself, would he not? Going by this very pseudoscientific hypothesis, would this designer not have to have been designed as well?

[mk1625]

DOES GOD EXIST?

LINK> http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

EXCERPT"...I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them...."

[*Laci]

I didn't know where else to post this, but the last several months I've been having my doubts. I'm really starting to identify myself as an agnostic. This has been very hard for me because, growing up in the Bible Belt I was raised Baptist. I even still attend church each Sunday. My mother knows about this, but my aunt & uncle (who raised me/live with) would probably be upset---mostly my aunt.
I'd like to consider myself a spiritual person, I believe in a higher power and even pray. I just can't accept organized religions that say the other is wrong.
Anyone else going through this, or has dealt with this before?

[Drew]

I didn't know where else to post this, but the last several months I've been having my doubts. I'm really starting to identify myself as an agnostic. This has been very hard for me because, growing up in the Bible Belt I was raised Baptist. I even still attend church each Sunday. My mother knows about this, but my aunt & uncle (who raised me/live with) would probably be upset---mostly my aunt.
I'd like to consider myself a spiritual person, I believe in a higher power and even pray. I just can't accept organized religions that say the other is wrong.
Anyone else going through this, or has dealt with this before?

I'm still a believer, but definitely not an organized religion person. I have doubts every now and then as well.

[katharinekatkat]

^Agree. I am a very spiritual person. I talk with God everyday. However, I don't agree with organized religions. I find they cloud your personal relationship with God by making all these "rules" that really have nothing to do with what "God" is all about.

[Smoochy]

Kind of on the fence. I'm currently a deist, but am leaning towards agnostic. I know I don't believe in organized religion though.

[krazykelli]

I didn't know where else to post this, but the last several months I've been having my doubts. I'm really starting to identify myself as an agnostic. This has been very hard for me because, growing up in the Bible Belt I was raised Baptist. I even still attend church each Sunday. My mother knows about this, but my aunt & uncle (who raised me/live with) would probably be upset---mostly my aunt.
I'd like to consider myself a spiritual person, I believe in a higher power and even pray. I just can't accept organized religions that say the other is wrong.
Anyone else going through this, or has dealt with this before?

Going through the same thing. I am not a part of any organized religion, but the Southern Baptists have completely turned me off of religion. I believe in God, but I cannot be part of an organized religion. And just like you, I was raised Baptist, and I still attend church (even though I'm starting to go less).

[adamsmo]

I didn't know where else to post this, but the last several months I've been having my doubts. I'm really starting to identify myself as an agnostic. This has been very hard for me because, growing up in the Bible Belt I was raised Baptist. I even still attend church each Sunday. My mother knows about this, but my aunt & uncle (who raised me/live with) would probably be upset---mostly my aunt.
I'd like to consider myself a spiritual person, I believe in a higher power and even pray. I just can't accept organized religions that say the other is wrong.
Anyone else going through this, or has dealt with this before?

Going through the same thing. I am not a part of any organized religion, but the Southern Baptists have completely turned me off of religion. I believe in God, but I cannot be part of an organized religion. And just like you, I was raised Baptist, and I still attend church (even though I'm starting to go less).

Just keep in mind that agnosticism is epistemology, not necessarily a 'belief', in the religious sense, atleast.

I think it's just important to keep in mind that gnosticism/agnosticism is about whether you KNOW something (the former is knowing, while the latter is not knowing), not believe something.

You can also consider the word 'ignostic' which means that no one can know what god is until it can be concretely defined.

It's so complex and vague..... essntiatly means undecided, i suppose.