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> Young student with CCW permit forced to disarm when on campus and promptly raped.
juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 4:57 PM
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It didn't change, she's just saying that young people are being assaulted/raped too. What you seem to be saying is that a 23 year old woman can carry a gun to protect herself from being raped but a child can't?


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pnkrngrwnnb
post Apr 10th 2011, 5:01 PM
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Guns are not bad. People who use them to victimize others are.

This post has been edited by *Christy*: Apr 10th 2011, 5:07 PM


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 5:09 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 2:57 PM) *

It didn't change, she's just saying that young people are being assaulted/raped too. What you seem to be saying is that a 23 year old woman can carry a gun to protect herself from being raped but a child can't?

Young people have less liberty in their lives than do adults. No one can tell an adult how to live, when to go to sleep, where they must walk, who they must associate with, etc but this is not the case with young children. Children's lives are very controlled and because their lives are very controlled it is up to their parents and caregivers to protect them.

An adult woman can go to the restroom in a public building and decide for herself whether it is safe to walk down the aisles of the store and into the restroom. A parent sending their 4 year old daughter to walk across the length of a Wal-Mart store to find a restroom and then proceed inside has far higher levels of risk involved. It's the parent's job to escort the child across the store to the restroom and insure that the child is safe inside the restroom.

There is a world of difference between adults and young children.

The job of the kindergarten teacher is to protect the children placed in her care. It's not the job of these 5 year old children to protect themselves. They don't know how to do that and they're too young to know that they are facing danger. An adult teacher knows when the children in her care are in danger and she knows ways to protect them.

Bum is being stupid by not recognizing any of this and instead asking whether we should allow 5 year old children to pack heat.

QUOTE(*Christy* @ Apr 10th 2011, 3:01 PM) *

Guns are not bad. People who use them to victimize others are.

Exactly!

This post has been edited by ColonelKlink: Apr 10th 2011, 5:09 PM


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bumnummies
post Apr 10th 2011, 6:29 PM
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QUOTE(juniorfan4eva @ Apr 10th 2011, 5:57 PM) *

It didn't change, she's just saying that young people are being assaulted/raped too. What you seem to be saying is that a 23 year old woman can carry a gun to protect herself from being raped but a child can't?


Duh, obviously he fails to understand this. giggle.gif People can be victimized whether they are legally allowed to have a gun or not. What needs to happen is better preventative measures so that we don't arise at these circumstances in the first place - like having campus security, etc. Owning a gun is just reactionary.

Which is ultimately the problem with American society... it's too reactionary - all about trying to fix an issue after sh!t has happened instead of preventing the problems from existing in the first place. Stems back to Theory Z/Japanese Management, something I linked to in another post in this forum.


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juniorfan4eva
post Apr 10th 2011, 6:31 PM
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I'm so glad we agree original.gif


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 10th 2011, 7:40 PM
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QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 10th 2011, 4:29 PM) *

Duh, obviously he fails to understand this. giggle.gif People can be victimized whether they are legally allowed to have a gun or not.

Show me something I wrote, or something written by anyone else, which declares that people who carry firearms are never victimized.

The issue isn't binary - victimization versus non-victimization. The issue is one focused on risk and incidence.

Compare home burglaries in the US to those in the UK and Canada:
QUOTE
It is axiomatic in the United States that burglars avoid occupied homes. As an introductory criminology textbook explains, "Burglars do not want contact with occupants; they depend on stealth for success." [FN8] Only thirteen percent of U.S. residential burglaries are attempted against occupied homes. [FN9] But this happy fact of life, so taken for granted in the United States, is not universal.

The overall Canadian burglary rate is higher than the American one, and a Canadian burglary is four times more likely to take place when the victims are home. [FN10]

In Toronto, forty-four percent of burglaries were against occupied homes, and twenty-one percent involved a confrontation with the victim. [FN11] Most Canadian residential burglaries occur at night, while American burglars are known to prefer daytime entry to reduce the risk of an armed confrontation. [FN12]

Research by the federal government's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention found that, based on 1994 data, American youths 10 to 17 years old had much higher arrest rates than Canadian youths for every category of violent and property crime. The lone exception was burglary, for which Canadian youths were one-third more likely to be involved. [FN13] In cities such as Vancouver, home invasion burglaries aimed at elderly people have become endemic, and murders of the elderly during those burglaries all too frequent. [FN14] Unfortunately, help from the government is not always available. In Quebec, the provincial police (Sureté du Québec) are under orders from their commander to reduce arrests for burglary, because the jails are full.

A 1982 British survey found fifty-nine percent of attempted burglaries involved an occupied home.

In the US this situation is different:
QUOTE
One out of thirty-one burglars has been shot during a burglary. [FN25] On the whole, when an American burglar strikes at an occupied residence, his chance of being shot is about equal to his chance of being sent to prison. [FN26] If we assume that the risk of prison provides some deterrence to burglary, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the equally large risk of being shot provides an equally large deterrent. In other words, private individuals with firearms in their homes double the deterrent effect that would exist if government-imposed punishment were the only deterrent. . . .

We see a clear pattern of behavior emerge. Criminals prefer to choose victims who can't fight back. Canadian and English burglars prefer to choose victims who are in their homes knowing that the odds are very high that these victims will have no firearms present in the home, thus giving the advantage to the home invader. American burglars choose to break into homes when the occupants are not present because they wish to reduce the risk of being confronted by an armed homeowner.

When a criminal is confronted by an armed victim the crime is deescalated in 90% of the cases because the criminal doesn't have the upper hand.

On the issue of rape victims it's difficult to develop a rationale for why rapists would act differently than burglars when choosing their victims. In Canada burglars prefer home invasions because they have a very high likelihood of finding unarmed victims. In the US burglars prefer targeting unoccupied homes because they want to avoid a confrontation with the home's residents. In cases of rape, rapists are going to choose women who they think are unarmed versus women who they think are armed. When a college campus makes a big deal about expelling students who are carrying a weapon in accord with the licensing from the State, this tells rapists that the area is target rich with unarmed women, thus lowering the risk to the rapist.

QUOTE
Real-world experiments yield results consistent with burglars' reports of their desire to avoid confrontations with armed victims. In Orlando in 1967, the police responded to a rape epidemic by initiating a highly publicized program training women in firearms use. [FN85] While rape increased in the nation and in Florida over the next year, the rape rate fell eighty- eight percent in Orlando, and burglary dropped twenty-two percent. [FN86]

The same year, rising rates of store robberies prompted a similar (but smaller-scale) program in Kansas City, Missouri, to train store owners in gun use. [FN87] The next year, while the robbery rate in Missouri and the United States continued to rise significantly, the rate fell in the Kansas City metro area. The trend of increasing burglary in the area also came to an abrupt end, contrary to state and national patterns. [FN88]

In 1982, the town of Kennesaw, Georgia, passed an ordinance requiring every home to have a gun. [FN89] Exceptions were made for conscientious objectors, people with criminal records, and for people in various other categories. [FN90] In the seven months before the ordinance, there had been forty-five residential burglaries; in the seven months after the ordinance, residential burglaries declined eighty-nine percent. [FN91] Over the next five years, the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was eighty-five percent below the rate before the enactment of the ordinance.


It's as simple as this - an armed society is a polite society. More or less. Yes, crime still happens but the risk and incidence decrease. If a rapist had to choose between two university campuses, one with a well-publicized policy of expelling all students who carry a firearm as permitted by their state CCW license and another campus which a well-publicized policy of encouraging students to apply for CCW permits and to exercise their rights to carry while on campus, which campus do you think that the rapist is going to prefer?
QUOTE
What needs to happen is better preventative measures so that we don't arise at these circumstances in the first place - like having campus security, etc.

You're invoking fairy dust again. What exactly are these "better preventative measures." Spell them out. Are you proposing that every university campus put a 12 foot high fence around the campus, topped with razor wire, and with only a few heavily controlled entry points where every student, faculty, staff and vistor must go through a strip search before being permitted onto campus? That's good prevention because the strip search and the controlled entry processes can be effective in stopping criminals with handguns from being on campus, thus making all people on campus equal in terms of violent weapons. Now all that women have to do is match the strength of rapists in hand to hand combat. Oops, there's the other flaw and we see it in its most stark form when applied to female police officers, who far more than their bigger and stronger male colleagues, have to draw and use their firearms when confronting criminal suspects. For women, firearms are equalizers. A man versus a woman on the measure of physical strength gives the advantage to a man, so an unarmed campus gives advantage to rapists (assuming that they follow the campus regulations and don't arm themselves - you know, a law-abiding criminal except for that one teensy exemption of breaking the law in order to rape a woman.)


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sneaky
post Apr 10th 2011, 8:06 PM
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QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 10th 2011, 3:42 PM) *

Actually that's not true, technically you can convert to whatever religion you want to, there have been cases of people in North American choosing to convert to Islam. Plenty of people convert to Christianity, or Judaism, etc etc. wink.gif

Just to, you know... keep facts as facts. thumbsup.gif

I've always been told that Muslim is the ethnicity/culture and Islam is the religion, so thats why I said that.


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bumnummies
post Apr 10th 2011, 9:05 PM
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QUOTE(sneaky @ Apr 10th 2011, 9:06 PM) *

I've always been told that Muslim is the ethnicity/culture and Islam is the religion, so thats why I said that.


Nope. Ethnicity would be Arab, or Persian, for instance. original.gif


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siliconesaline
post Apr 11th 2011, 8:24 PM
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This isn't a liberal vs conservative issue, nice spin though. Kind of disgusting to use this girls experience as a pawn for your own political gain.

QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 10th 2011, 3:55 PM) *

Funny, people on Canadian college and university campuses aren't packing. And yes, stuff happens, because I know CK will dig out some article where there were campus assaults on women at York University... however. If an individual uses every normal precaution, such as, oh... WALKING IN PAIRS/GROUPS like any smart woman knows, carrying a rape whistle, etc, crime can be prevented without having to resort to carrying guns, knives, etc. wink.gif Pepper spray can also be effective.... Basically, using common sense is the biggest thing you can do to prevent crime from happening to you. whistling.gif There are groups on campuses that can help you become more knowledgeable in personal safety, and I'm guessing that this particular individual didn't seek that kind of assistance.


Borderline victim blaming here. Btw no one responds to rape whistles, give me a break. People dont even respond to the world "help".


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 11th 2011, 8:31 PM
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QUOTE(siliconesaline @ Apr 11th 2011, 6:24 PM) *

This isn't a liberal vs conservative issue, nice spin though.

Yes it is. Conservatives recognize and honor the Constitution. Liberals are on the warpath against Constitutional rights and the right to carry a firearm is one that liberals love to attack.

The state licensed this woman so that she could carry a concealed weapon. The university liberals thought they knew better than the state and created a little apartheid zone where their rules took precedence over State law. Too bad that this woman had to pay for liberal ignorance and disrespect for the law.

Look, everything bad that happens as a result of liberal initiatives is always, according to game plan, described as something that is not connected to the liberal agenda, but that tactic is old and tired. Better for liberals to own the failures that their policies produce and at least try to mount some defense. Deflection and disavowal don't work so well anymore.


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bumnummies
post Apr 13th 2011, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE(siliconesaline @ Apr 11th 2011, 9:24 PM) *

Borderline victim blaming here.


You have to ask the question though, I mean... it's 2011, we know there are rapists out there, as women why are we not taking all the safety precautions we can? It's the ones that happen in broad daylight that scare me, but if you're walking alone late at night, it's not that you're ASKING to be raped, but you're putting yourself in an incredible amount of danger because you should know the likelihood of it happening. The whole "it won't happen to me" syndrome youth suffer from, basically. I guess it takes incidents for people to wake the hell up and realize that it could be them... or that it was them. I'm all about empowering yourself and taking responsibility for your life and I'm not saying that it's her fault she got raped, and obviously there are multiple factors that could have helped to prevent it on the school's part, but you have to own up to the fact that you as an individual are responsible for your personal safety, and if it means finding someone to walk with, if it means calling campus security and having them escort you, even if you think it's ridiculous, you gotta do it.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 13th 2011, 1:08 PM
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QUOTE(bumnummies @ Apr 13th 2011, 10:40 AM) *

You have to ask the question though, I mean... it's 2011, we know there are rapists out there, as women why are we not taking all the safety precautions we can?

This is the first sensible thing that you've written on this forum in a couple of months. Be proud of yourself! You see, there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel of darkness that you've been traveling.
QUOTE
but you have to own up to the fact that you as an individual are responsible for your personal safety

You're on a roll here. Two sensible points in one post. When was the last time that you ever did that? I can't recall you ever doing that! Big congratulations to you.
QUOTE
and if it means finding someone to walk with, if it means calling campus security and having them escort you, even if you think it's ridiculous, you gotta do it.

Or carrying a concealed weapon that the state has licensed you to carry. Right?

This post has been edited by ColonelKlink: Apr 13th 2011, 1:08 PM


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CarrieFan702
post Apr 13th 2011, 7:14 PM
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Both students and parents should have the comfort in knowing that when they step foot on a campus they are in a safe environment. The problems with guns is that it is a weapon that leads to unsafe results. A gun can go off, miss its target and kill someone innocent. Someone suspected as "guilty" who is actually innocent can be harmed by a gun. Once a gun goes off, anyone in its path can be hurt. I was reading a story of when a student brought a gun to school, and it went off, and injured other innocent students. The gun should NOT have been allowed on campus! When you welcome guns from people with a permit, you have to welcome EVERYONE to carry a gun with a permit. There are people who have a gun permit, that still can not use a gun responsibly i.e. the Arizona Tuscon shooter. In the case of the student on campus, if she was about to be raped there are many other weapons she can use to attack her rapist. For one, there's pepper spray, or she can physically attack him in his vulnerable areas, and run to the police. Also, there will be additional penalies placed on the rapist if he was on a gun free school compared to a school that allow guns. The man can be charged three times. 1) The rape, 2) Using the gun irresponsibly, and 3) bringing a gun to a gun free zone. Students need to know that they're in a safe environment.


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ColonelKlink
post Apr 13th 2011, 7:35 PM
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QUOTE(CarrieFan702 @ Apr 13th 2011, 5:14 PM) *

Both students and parents should have the comfort in knowing that when they step foot on a campus they are in a safe environment.

You mean like when people get in their cars they should be assured that they'll never be the victims of an accident?

You mean like when people go for a hike on a nature trail, they should be assured that a bear will never show up on the trail or that a landslide will never come cascading down a hill?
QUOTE
The problems with guns is that it is a weapon that leads to unsafe results.

The problem with cars is that it is a weapon that leads to unsafe results. An elderly woman who gets confused by the controls or a teenage boy who is racing or a drunk middle-aged woman, etc all drive their cars into walking pedestrians and the car versus human impact tends to kill lots of innocent people.



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bumnummies
post Apr 19th 2011, 6:58 AM
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These are exactly the types of measures all universities should have:

http://www.yorku.ca/gosafe/

There was a recent sexual assault I guess on campus (I don't know the details exactly) and so they are REMINDING staff and students that this does exist. wink.gif


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